Some detailed Jager pictures.pdf

Some detailed Jager pictures

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1900-1918 : German (non-P08) Pistols & Holsters Some detailed Jager pictures

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#1

08-01-2010, 04:33 PM Join Date: Location: Posts:

Jan 2008 Maryland 403

wilhelm Member


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6/1/2015 AM 11:32



Warning Will Robinson!!! Warning!!! CRAZY LONG POST!!! These are the beginning of my attempt to document the Jager from a design and construction standpoint. Really detailed information about these pistols is almpst nonexistent. I am interested in firearms from a design perspective as much as I am a historical perspective...perhaps more. Much of my collection is based on firsts and that is the number one reason I looked for a Jager all these years. So, you can imagine my frustration at the lack of really good closeup pictures. I am no photographer but I think these pictures will help someone who is in the same boat I was in. I know that they answer questions that vexed Thewithout text andmy pictures that follow are copyright 2010 and me arefor notso tolong! be used written permission. First are three pictures of the grips and grip screws. I believe that they are made of horn and they're pretty sturdy. The screws have very shallow slots and are easily marred. The threads are crudely turned. This is the case for all screws on the pistol but they seem to work fine. Notice that the inside of the right grip has an "M" scratched into it. Various metal parts have either an "M" or some other letter stamped into them. I believe these to be factory inspection marks.

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Next is a picture of the pistol with the left sideplate removed and the

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magazine inserted. Note the serial number on the barrel block. I had read before that the entire serial number is stamped on all parts. That is not the case. Some parts have the entire number 1149 stamped while others have only 149.

Next is the same view with magazine removed. This shows the trigger spring and trigger bar. Note that the trigger spring has been replaced. This happened just after I recieved it on the second test shot! Wilhelm luck. I've come to expect it and live with it over the years. I have kept the srcinal and the replacement was done so as to be as unintrusive as possible. It's crude compared to the srcinal but it works. A range report will come later.....hopefully nothing else breaks but I'm not confident that it won't!

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Next are two pictures of the left side plate. The stamped ejector can be clearly seen. Also note how the inside of the plate is dished out for the recoil spring. While the outside of the plate is very nicely finished, the inside is quite crudely worked and shows many file marks. In fact, most parts seem to be crude and handworked but others are as fine as I have ever seen. There is a rainbow effect evident in the bluing on the inside of both left and right sideplates. I assume this is because they are hardened but that is only a guess.

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Here we have two closeup shots of the ejector and the fastening

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mechanism. I read somewhere that the ejector is held in place by a screw. I cannot dispute that on other examples but it is clearly pinned in mine. Notice that the pin is large inside the plate but very small on the outside. It would be "T" shaped in cross section. Also note that the pin can only be seen on the outside when the light strikes at just the right angle. Very good workmanship here. The ejector leaves a very small line ust past halfway up the side of spent casings and parallel to the base and neck of the cartridge. Only the little tip seen at the rear ofthe ejector in the first picture actually touches the casing. Also evident in these pictures again plates.is the difference in finishing between the inside and outside of the

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The next three pictures show the 7 round magazine. The follower is either in the white or nickle plated. The base is pinned in two places. One of the pins was not drilled straight! German craftsmanship is lacking here!

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Next we have two of the three frame screws. All are the same diameter, length and thread but the screw that mounts above the trigger (shown on the left) has a domed head and has the bluing removed from the head while the two lower ones (one shown on the right) are flat across their face and are blued. I assume the bluing was removed when the dome was applied. Also, you can see the sun shining through the edge of a grip. Pretty!!

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Next is a detail of the spacer tube that the upper frame screw passes through and its relationship with the barrel block. Note that the triggerguard strap is dished out to make room for the spacer. This spacer acts as a recoil lug for the barrel and as a frame spacer so that you don't tighten things up too much upon reassembly. While it does keep the barrel from rising, it does absolutely nothing to keep the barrel from falling. When the action is forward, the barrel is as tight as any fixed barrel pistol. However, when the action is to the rear, the barrel gets a little squirrelly. This cannot be good for durability let alone accuracy and I suspect that the second pin was added later as a fix for this problem. Note that the trigger is held in place by a pin and NOT the frame screw. I wondered this for a long time.

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Next is a closeup of the spacer tube and upper frame screw. This tube appears to have been ground to proper length and is kinda' sharp on one side.

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This last picture shows how the trigger, trigger spring and trigger bar interact with each other. The triggerguard strap has been removed and the trigger pulled to show the surface that pushes on the lug seen on the bar. This bar protrudes through the frame when the pistol is assembled but I don't know why. You could actually push on this bar and fire the weapon without pulling the trigger but it is impossible without trying hard to do so. In other words, it's perfectly safe. Both the trigger and it's accompanying bar are very finely made. Notice the cutout in the frame plate for the trigger spring to move back and forth. The spring and bar notches are milled out of the plate. Also, a step is machined into each plate just forward of the barrel block and a small lip is machined at the rear of each plate that locks into cuts in the backstrap. As far as I can tell, these things are the only machine work done to the plates other than drilling holes for the takedown pins, barrel pins and assembly screws as well as the threading of the screw holes. For all I know, those holes could have been part of the srcinal stamping though. Everything else seems to have been done with a handfile! WOW!! That's a lotta' use of the word "trigger" right there!!

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That's all for now. More to follow later. Hopefully, this stuff is useful and I'm not boring anyone to tears!! Last edited by wilhelm; 08-01-2010 at 11:25 PM.

Technoidiot Wear is the natural evolution of anything made by man. Embrace wear and it mark, not as each misfortune but rather as amemory. living library things past with see each blemish a cherished yes, Iofam a cheezeball.

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Feb 2010 Russian, Moscow 41

6/1/2015 11:32 AM



2m-outrage New Member

Perfectly well! Very informative photos! You are right, it is very difficult to find the information on design of this pistol. Continue necessarily. I have an intention to create 3D-model this pistol and your photos very much will help me

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wilhelm Member

Alrighty then. Here goes part deux. I'll start right where I left off. As before, text and images copyright 2010. So don't be stealing my stuff manny!!! :-P

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Here are both sides of the trigger bar. Picture one shows back side. It's boring but it's shiny! The trigger and trigger spring part of the bar we already looked at. On the extreme right of picture two, you see a little humped up bit at the end. This acts as the disconnector. It keeps the pistol from firing when the slide is out of battery and it resets the trigger after each shot. The lug to the left of the disconnector interacts with the sear pulls it down as you pull the trigger.....BANG! Or in the case of a .32.....POP!

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A couple shots of the trigger guard strap. First is the top front. It shows how the takedown pin works. The pin has a lip around it. A spring is inserted into a blind hole drilled into the strap. Then the pin goes in. Then a little screw is screwed in from the side which captures the pin because the little lip on the pin hits it. I hope that makes sense because I'm not doing a disassembly. The little capture screw looks mighty fragile. Also seen are the grab points used to pull the strap down after the pin is depressed. Notice how they are designed with a slot so that they wrap around the frame plates thus giving the front of the pistol rigidity. Also, you can see the serial number and an "M" inspection stamp. The second picture is the lower part of the strap seen from the inside of the pistol. It has a groove filed into it to guide the magazine.

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Next up is the rear strap. This first picture shows the inside of the strap.

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Top of the pistol is to the left. Notice again that only the last three digits of the serial are present. To the right, we see the magazine release. The mag release is held in place by a pin. It's a typical european heel arrangement. Notice that ol' Franz had one of his boys go a little wacko with a file here. In todays world, this pistol would have 100% interchangable parts. But this was made in 1915 and the concept was simply too far ahead of it's time. The design was supposed to simplify production but here is ample evidence of the hand fitting that was required to make it work. I guarantee that if you took a rear strap off of another pistol and tried to ust stick it into this where pistol, one you of would run into problems. Moving to the left, we have a hole the frame screws passes through. More on that hole in a bit. Then we have the sear spring. You can see where it disappears into the sear which is either in the white or nickled. You can also see a lug on the top of the sear. This is where the trigger bar pushes against. Lastly, you can see a little slot cut into the strap near the safety lever. There is one on each side and they capture the rear of the frame plates. Look at all the parts laying around in the background.....I'm messy.

Here is the rear strap seen from the top. Front of pistol would be top of picture. We can see the top of the safety lever to the left and it's in the "Fire" position. To engage the safety, you swing this lever down through a 180 degree arc until it points straight out the back of the pistol. It's a very positive engagement but it's awkward and fragile. It takes two hands to manipulate and a little metal bit sticking out in thin air like that is just

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asking to be broken. You can also clearly see the left slot I talked about earlier which captures the rear of the left frame plate. The right slot is visible too but it's hard to make out because of the angle. The screw holds the leaf spring for the safety on place. The spring has a pretty fire blue on it. Beside the safety spring is the sear. The notch on top holds the striker to the rear and you can clearly see the lug that the trigger bar pushes on. The sear rotates down to the rear and is held in the rear strap by a pin. I have no idea how the safety lever is held in place nor how the rear takedown pin (barely visible to the right as a silver and shadowed line) is held in. I have no plans to disassemble this mess as today! I mightSomething break something. I might get ballsy at some point but not a little disconcerting is the size of the lugs/slide rails that the slide engages with. They can be seen sticking out each side at the bottom of the picture. These things are TINY and they are all that keeps the slide from flying up and away from the frame as it moves back and forth. I guess they work but I'm used to nice long rails. I keep reminding myself....it's only a little .32. My P7 has short little rails too but they work.

Here are the last two pictures of the rear strap. They show the hole that the lower rear frame screw passes through. Notice the crack!! This part of the frame is under no real stress and the other side of the hole has plenty of meat so I'm not too worried about it but is does show shoddy workmanship. You can also see the magazine release and its capture pin. The heel release is crude. The little grip lines aren't even parallel. Maybe the guy was drunk?

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The next two show the slide/barrel group removed from the pistol. This first picture shows the group from the bottom rear. You can see the breechblock still in place and the feed ramp of the barrel. We'll go into detail on the breechblock later.

Here is the front of the group showing the slide, front slide insert with sight blade, barrel and spring. This picture also shows what I believe to be a major weak point in this design. Notice what looks like a crack. It's not. That is the meeting of the slide insert and slide proper. You see, at this point the slide proper is just a thick bar with some machiining done to it. It has a hole milled down through it which the front insert goes into up from the bottom. This insert sticks out the top, forming the front sight. Then a hole is drilled from the side through the slide proper and the insert and a pin inserted. I don't think any welding or brazing was involved. The whole thing is then polished and made pretty. It's polished so well that you can't even see the pin on my example but it's there. I'll bet that the gap you see was invisible too 95 years ago. I'd lay money on it that prolonged shooting will first result in a loose insert and eventually lead to catastophic failure of the slide. I believe that this is the reason later production models have two pins up front. Right now the insert is rock solid but when I put a straight edge down the front of the slide, I can see that the insert is no longer perfectly perpendicular to the top of the slide. it's off by a hair. We'll see more of this area later when we inspect the slide all by itself.

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Now we've disassembled the slide barrel group and here is the barrel and barrel block seen from the right side. This is all milled from one piece of steel as far as I can tell. We can see the right lug which sticks through the frame and it has an inspection stamp visible. We also see the cutout for the extractor and a lug on top of the barrel block. This lug fits into a recess machined out of the slide and helps keep everything on the straight and narrow during recoil and return into battery. You can see some machining marks. Where is the pride in work well done Franz??

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Not much to see here. Four groove barrel. It's really nice in there but I left some crud. Please ignore that.

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That's all for tonight. I'll continue this yawnfest tomorrow guys. Thanks for tolerating me. Last edited by wilhelm; 08-02-2010 at 10:47 PM.

Technoidiot Wear is the natural evolution of anything made by man. Embrace wear and see it not as misfortune but rather as a living library of things past with each mark, each blemish a cherished memory. yes, I am a cheezeball.

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08-03-2010, 12:30 AM Edward Tinker Administrator

Join Date: Location: Posts:

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Aug 2003 near Philly Penn, USA 10,009

6/1/2015 11:32 AM



This is excellent Wilhelm, well done and thank you for posting, i am going to make this a sticky. Although they need to have the pictures posted here, if you don't know how to shrink them, I will do so at some point. In other words, don't worry about it, I'll take care of it while I pretend to drink a wine cooler.

Ed

Reply With Quote #5

08-03-2010, 12:51 AM Join Date: Location: Posts:


wilhelm Member

Thanks Ed!! WOW My first sticky!!!!! This is great!!!! On another note, my signature says it all.....I'm a Technoidiot. In other words, I'm clueless. I'll just keep posting the only way I know how and you can fix it however you want it. Thanks again Ed!


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Reply With Quote #6

08-04-2010, 12:06 AM Join Date: Location: Posts:


wilhelm Member

I'm back with part three. Isn't this over yet?? Text and pictures copyright 2010. Before I go on, I need to show two more pictures of the backstrap. The first one shows the right side of the strap assembly. We can see the rear takedown pin and the far side of the safety drum. You can also see the little pin that holds the sear in as well as the sear itself and the lug on it that the trigger bar pushes on. Look at that tiny little slide rail lug at the rear for the slide!! Picture two shows the left side of the assembly with the safety rotated into the "Safe" position. You can also see the left side slide rail, sear and sear pin again, safety spring and retaining screw and, lastly, the sear spring coming up from the bottom of the picture.

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Now we move on the the breechblock. This part is machined (obviously)

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and is in no way fastened to the slide. It just sits in there and gets pulled back and forth by a pin inserted through the slide. When you remove the slide, the breechblock just falls out on the floor. More on that pin later. First picture shows the face of the block. The striker is protruding out the front. Off to the left we see the extractor and to the right, the slot that the ejector passes through.

Here is the right side of the block. At the bottem left, you can see where a curved area was milled away. This was done to make room for the disconnector to rise and allow the pistol to be fired. As the block moves to the rear on recoil, it pushes the trigger bar out of contact with the sear and it also keeps the trigger bar from interacting with the sear unless the slide is in battery. We can also see the bare metal extractor running along the entire length of the block and a pin holding the extractor in place. The extractor is curved along its length to give it spring tension, much like the trigger spring was. This part is inherently fragile. If you were to pull the extractor out from the block very much, it would most defenitely break. I hope it holds up better than the trigger spring did! In the middle of the block is a dished out area. This is where the pin in the slide rests. These two parts (slide pin and breechblock) are very tightly fitted and there is no play between them. You can also see a couple coils of the striker spring.

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Three quarter rear view of the breechblock. The little bit in the middle of the back is a plug that was inserted to hold the striker and its spring in. You can also see the pin that holds this plug in place. It's hard to make out but you can just see the rear of the extractor on the right side of the block.

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Three quarter right side of the block seen from the bottom. Closest to the camera is the dished area for the disconnector. The slots machined for the magazine feed lips can be seen as well as the striker lug that catches the sear. Notice the pin that holds the rear plug in place. There is a piece of metal missing from the block here and you can clearly see the fracture. This hole was drilled WAY to close to the edge and it probably broke when the pin was being driven in at the factory all those years ago. More shoddy workmanship. I was going to disassemble the block and take some pictures of the striker until I saw this mess. If you've ever seen the striker from a Mauser Model 1910, you know what the Jager striker looks like.

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Next is the top of the breechblock. Rear is to the right. We can see the last three digits of the serial and an "L" inspectors mark. In the center is the dished out part and the drilled hole with the striker spring present. To the left is something interesting. Look carefuly and you can see where some of the bluing is worn away in the outline shape of a backwards "1" and part of a backwards "9". These are wear marks from the slide. You see, the slide is serial numbered in this area and the raised areas resulting from the number punch have rubbed the bluing off the block leaving these "ghost" numbers. Neato!!!

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It's late and I'm tired so I'm stopping here for now. Tomorrow, I will cover the slide and start wrapping this whole thing up. Thanks for reading.....now WAKE UP and go do something interesting 'cause looking at this stuff sure as hecks is booooring. Last edited by wilhelm; 08-04-2010 at 10:32 PM.

Technoidiot Wear is the natural evolutionbut of anything bylibrary man. Embrace and see it not as misfortune rather asmade a living of things wear past with each mark, each blemish a cherished memory. yes, I am a cheezeball.

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wilhelm Member

Time to wrap this thing up; I'm not writing a book here!! Blah blah blah text and pictures copyright 2010 blah blah blah. Slide time. I really have no idea how this part was made. I've read that the whole thing was stamped and the sides were bent down. I don't see how that would work but I am no machinest/engineer. It looks to me like the top of the slide is bar stock and the sides, while they may be individually stamped out, were brazed or welded to the top bar. Then the machined rear insert was attached and the front insert/sight was attached. That's only a guess. Tell me what you guys think. It has a decent amount of machine work done to it. This includes but is not limited to the grip serrations, fitting for the breechblock, drilling out for the crosspin, milling out the track for the lug on top of the barrel block, fitting the front insert and just generally polishing the whole thing up to make it pretty. Enough gabbing...time for pictures. This first one shows the slot that engages with the right slide rail. Not much to see and it looks pretty standard. Of course, there is one on the left side of the slide too but I didn't take a picture as it's essentially identical. I see some crud in there!! I usually keep my stuff much cleaner than this!

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Here, we are looking up into the rear of the slide. On the right you can see the rear insert. On this example, it is held in place by one screw. Apparently, they later nixed the screw and used two pins instead. Why two? There is no apparent stress here. The only answer I can come up with is why not? Moving left, we can see the pin that holds the breechblock in its place as the slide reciprocates. I have read that this pin stiffens the slide and I'm sure that it does. But the sides of this assembly are pretty substantial already. I think the main purpose of the pin is to keep the breechblock from getting squirrely. This pin, while passing completely throught the slide, is invisible from the outside because it was nicely polished after being inserted. Next we see the serial number which has superimposed itself on the breechblock and an "L" inspection mark. And finally, we see the beginning of the slot that engages with the barrel lug.

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Here we see that slot in its entirety. Not much to say other than the milling marks are appalling. I have a Steyr Model 12. It shows exactly zero machining marks inside the slide. Get with the program Franzy!!

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Here is the inside front of the slide. The entire front of the slide bar is rounded out to make room for the recoil spring. Clearly seen is the bottom of the block that fits up into the slide bar. This block terminates on the outside of the slide as the nonadjustable front sight. As I said earlier, no brazing or welding is apparent. This whole thing is held in by a single pin. Later in the production run, a second pin was added. I think this was done for rigidity.

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Here is the front of the slide. If you look closely, you can see a curved line where the insert and slide bar meet.

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Right side showing crack where insert and bar meet. We talked about this earlier when we looked at the left side while it was still mated with the barrel and recoil spring.

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These next two show the front sight from above. This area was polished after assembly in order to hide the seam where the insert and bar meet but if you look closely, you can still see it.

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Here is a shot of the left side of the slide. Not much to say. notice how

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there is no ejection port on the Jager. As the slide moves to the rear, both sides open behind the barrel block and you can see right through the pistol.

Here is the barrel with the recoil spring at rest. It is a pain in the buttocks getting the slide back over the barrel because there is nothing to capture the front of the spring as you compress it. It just wants to wiggle out to each side and then you gotta' start over.

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Here is a shot of the barrel assembled between the side plates. I rotated it down as far as it would go in order to show why the second pin is necesssary. I can't believe they didn't think of this before series production began. Tilting barrel + slide trying to move in straight line = bad things. Notice my fingerprint over the word "Jager". I'm such a dirtball!

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Here we have the whole mess partially assembled. It's like a damn chinese puzzle box I tell you!! On thing is for sure. This design represents some serious out of the box thinking...even by todays standards. It's easy to see why it was rejected by the military. If you were a Prussian officer, brought up under a strict regimen of discipline, tradition and conservative thinking and you were presented this thing for evaluation, would you accept it?? I think most people would laugh.

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But somehow, it all fits and ends up back in one piece. I will be doing a range test on it before too long and I'll report my findings. Hopefully it doesn't go KAPLOOIE!!!! Here are two last shots showing a nice comparison of the Jager both ready to fire and in phantom form.

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I sincerely hope someone finds all this helpful. I know it's long but I tried

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to pack as much useful information into it as I could. I also hope that you guys could follow my poor descriptions without too much difficulty and that it all makes some kind of sense. It was frustrating for me not being able to find information all these yearsand I have tried to rectify that for the next guy who is searching. If anyone ever has any questions or needs help in any way, please contact me. I will do my best to help. So that's all for now. If you made it this far you are a SERIOUS Jager fan and you're ust as crazy as I am!! Thanks for reading and God bless. Last edited by wilhelm; 08-05-2010 at 03:46 AM.


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wilhelm Member

A nice gentleman asked me for some pictures with the slide to the rear. There is no hold open mechanism so I removed the recoil spring to get these pictures. The first three show left and right side as well as a front view.

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Here is the face of the breechblock. You can also see the little nub on the rear of the ejector.

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And the other side of the ejector. You can also see the steep feed ramp.

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Here is a round ready to feed into the chamber. Notice how that crazy steep feed ramp is not really an issue. The round sits so high that it's almost a straight feed into the chamber. I expect feeding issues to be nil.


Reply With Quote 08-08-2010, 06:58 PM

#9 Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: New Mexico, USA. Posts: 5,055

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Ron Wood Vanguard Member

This has been a super photo essay. I admit to being a dyed in the wool Jager fan, so it has been a sheer delight for me. Thank you for providing us with such splendid detail. The quality of your photos is outstanding. Very best regards, Ron

If it is made after 1918...it is a reproduction.

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Sep 2003 Brazil (South America) 2,941

Douglas_Jr Advanced Member

Outstanding photo study os a very scarce pistol. Thank you for your time and patiance to post everything. Douglas. Last edited by Douglas_Jr; 08-09-2010 at 09:21 AM.

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Some detailed Jager pictures.pdf

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