Michaud/Playpen Hearing Transcript

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT WESTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON IN TACOMA

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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff,

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vs. JAY MICHAUD, Defendant.

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) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )

No. CR15-5351RBJ

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MOTIONS HEARING

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BEFORE THE HONORABLE ROBERT J. BRYAN UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT JUDGE

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January 22, 2016 16 17

APPEARANCES:

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Keith Becker U.S. Department of Justice Criminal Division Matthew Hampton Assistant United States Attorney Representing the Plaintiff

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Colin Fieman Linda Sullivan Federal Public Defender's Office Representing the Defendant

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Barry L. Fanning, RMR, CRR - Official Court Reporter Suite 17205 - 700 Stewart St. - Seattle, WA 98101

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EXAMINATION INDEX

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EXAMINATIONOF DANIEL ALFIN

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CHRIS SOGHOIAN 7 8 9

PAGE DIRECT EXAMINATION By r. B ecker CROSS-EXAMINATION By r. F ieman REDIRECT EXAMINATION By r. B ecker RECROSS-EXAMINATION By r. F ieman DIRECT EXAMINATION By r. F ieman CROSS-EXAMINATION By r. B ecker REDIRECT EXAMINATION By r. F ieman

54 73 89 94 99 120 128

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12 13 14 15

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1617 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

EXHIBITSADMITTED 12A 12B 15 15B 13B 13A 1 A15 & A16

EXHIBIT INDEX

PAGE 57 58 62 63 71 91 97 98

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T H E CO U R T:

G o o d mo r n i n g .

T h i s is

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Ca us e No . 15 -5 35 1, Un it ed St at es ve rs us Ja y

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is pre se nt in cou rt wit h hi s at to rn ey s,

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R. HA MI LT ON :

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R. BEC KE R:

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ag en da fo r th is pr oc ee di ng .

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is arra ig nm en t on th e su pe rs ed in g in di ct me nt .

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pr o c e e d w i t h t h a t f i r s t .

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TH E DE FE ND AN T:

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TH E CO UR T:

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TH E DE FE ND AN T:

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TH E CO UR T:

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de te rm in ed th at you r na me is Jay

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th e ca pt io n of th es e do cu me nt s; is th at co rr ec t?

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TH E DE FE ND AN T:

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TH E CO UR T:

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s. S ul li va n.

Fo r th e go ve rn me nt ,

R. BEC KE R: T H E C O U R T:

ic ha ud , wh o

r. Fie ma n an d

r. B ec ke r.

Go od mor ni ng , yo ur Hon or . And

r. H amilton. Go od mo rn in g.

At cou ns el ta bl e is FBI Spe ci al Ag en t

Dan iel Alfi n. T H E CO U R T:

r.

G o o d mo r n i n g .

I pu t o u t a l i t t l e

Th e fi rs t th in g on th e ag en da So le t' s

ic ha ud , h av e yo u re ce iv ed a co py of t he

super seding indict ment? I ha ve see n it , yo ur Hon or .

An d yo u ha ve ha d a ch an ce to re ad th at

an d di sc us s it wi th yo ur la wy er s? Ye s, you r Ho no r.

I th in k in pr io r pr oc ee di ng s we ha ve ic ha ud , as it ap pe ar s in

Ye s, you r Ho no r.

I th in k we al so de te rm in ed th at yo u

ca n re ad and wr it e En gl is h wi th no di ff ic ul ty , an d ha ve


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consi derabl e second ary educat ion, right?

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TH E DE FE ND AN T:

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TH E CO UR T:

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ri gh t to re ma in si le nt , an d ar e no t re qu ir ed to ma ke an y

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sta tem ent s abo ut the se mat ter s?

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TH E DEF EN DA NT :

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TH E CO UR T:

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ri gh t to cou ns el .

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pe r s o n s of

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co nf er re d wi th th em ab ou t th is ma tt er , th e su pe rs ed in g

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indictment?

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TH E DE FE ND AN T:

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TH E CO UR T:

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in di ct me nt su pe rs ed es an d ta ke s th e pl ac e of the or ig in al

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in di ct me nt fi le d in th e ca se ?

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TH E DE FE ND AN T:

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TH E CO UR T:

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in di ct me nt re ad to yo u he re in op en co ur t to be su re th at

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yo u un de rs ta nd it.

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re ad to yo u?

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TH E DE FE ND AN T:

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TH E CO UR T:

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An d yo u un de rs ta nd tha t yo u ha ve the

I do , you r Ho no r.

Yo u al so und er st an d th at you

ha ve the

An d th at has bee n pr ov id ed in th e

r . F i e m a n a nd

s. Sullivan.

You have


An d yo u un de rs ta nd tha t th is

Do yo u un de rs ta nd th at ?

I do now , y ou r Ho no r.

No w, yo u ha ve th e r ig ht to ha ve th e

Do you wis h to hav e th e in di ct me nt

No , yo ur Ho no r.

I be li ev e th e fi rs t tw o co un ts are

sa me as in th e or ig in al in di ct me nt ; is th at co rr ec t? R. HA MI LT ON : TH E CO UR T:

Th at 's co rr ec t, yo ur Ho no r.

Yo u we re adv is ed of th e pe na lt ie s


t he

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po s s i b l e i n t h e e v e n t o f c o nv i c t i o n o f t h o s e t w o ch a r g e s ?

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TH E DE FE ND AN T:

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TH E CO UR T:

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Co un t 3, an d is a ne w ch ar ge , wh at is th e ma xi mu m pe na lt y

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that

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mi n i m u m t e r m o f i m p r i s on m e n t of f i ve y e a r s , a n d u p t o 2 0

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ye ar s of im pr is on me nt ; a te rm of su pe rv is io n fo ll owi ng

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re le as e fr om pr is on of no t le ss th an fi ve ye ar s, an d up to

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li fe ; up to a $2 50 ,0 00 fi ne ; a $1 00 ma nd at or y sp ec ia l

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as se ss me nt ; an d a $5 ,0 00 pe na lt y as se ss me nt if th e co ur t

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fi nd s the de fe nd an t is no t in di ge nt .

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TH E DE FE ND AN T:

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TH E CO UR T:

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ch ar ge d wi th po ss es si on of ch il d po rn og ra ph y on or ab ou t

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Ju ly 10 th , 20 15 , at Va nc ou ve r, wi th in th is di st ri ct .

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do yo u pl ea d to th at ch ar ge as it is se t fo rt h i n th e

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supers eding indict ment?

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TH E DE FE ND AN T:

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TH E CO UR T:

r.

As to th e th ir d ch ar ge , wh ic h i s

i c h a u d i s f a c i n g fo r th a t c h a r g e ? R. HA MI LT ON :

TH E CO UR T: p e n a l t i e s,

r.


r.

Yo ur Ho no r, th e de fe nd an t fa ce s a

Do yo u un de rs ta nd th os e po ss ib le

i c h a ud ? Ye s, you r Ho no r.

An d, co un se l, ar e yo u sa ti sf ie d th at

i ch au d is rea dy to en te r a pl e a to the se cha r ge s? S. SUL LI VA N: THE C OURT:

r.

We are , yo ur Ho no r. ichaud , i n C ount 1 y ou a re

No t gu il ty , yo ur Ho no r.

In Co un t 2 y ou ar e ch ar ge d wi th


Ho w

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rec eiv ing chi ld por nog rap hy bet wee n Feb rua ry 21s t and

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p l e a d t o C o u n t 2 a s i t is s et f o r t h i n t h e s u p e r s e d i n g

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indictment?

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TH E DE FE ND AN T:

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TH E CO UR T:

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re ce ip t of ch il d po rn og ra ph y on or ab ou t Ju ne 18 th of la st

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ye ar , at Va nc ou ve r, wi th in th is di st ri ct .

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p l e a d t o C o u n t 3 a s i t is s et f o r t h i n t h e s u p e r s e d i n g

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TH E DE FE ND AN T:

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TH E CO UR T:

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at te nt io n to th at , in co nn ec ti on wi th th e ar ra ig nm en t we

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ha d as ke d th at

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a le ve l wh er e he is on el ec tr on ic mo ni to ri ng , bu t ju st on

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a cu rf ew .

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to do th at a nd is in ag re em en t wi th th at , an d we wo ul d as k

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th at th e bo nd co nd it io n be mo di fi ed ac co rd in gl y.

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ar ch 2nd

of la st ye a r wi th i n th is di st ri c t.

H ow d o y ou

No t gu il ty , yo ur Ho no r.

An d in Co un t 3 yo u ar e ch ar ge d wi th

Ho w do yo u

indictment? No t gu il ty , yo ur Ho no r.

Al l rig ht .

Th e pl ea s wil l be ent er ed .

W e w i l l t u r n o u r a t t e n t i o n t o o t h e r m a t t e rs . S. SUL LI VA N:

r.

Yo ur Hon or , be fo re we tu rn our

ic ha ud ' s bo nd co nd it io ns be red uc ed to

I un de rs ta nd that Pre tr ia l Se rv ic es is pr ep ar ed

TH E CO UR T:

I ha ve no t he ar d fr om Pr et ri al

Se rv ic es on th is . PR ET RI AL SE RV IC ES OF FI CE R: Ho no r. r.

Go od mo rn in g, yo ur

I am Ja mi e Pa rk hu rs t wi th Pr et ri al Se rv ic es .

ic ha ud ha s be en on sup er vi si on wi th ou r of fi ce sin ce


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h e wa s p l a c e d o n b o n d .

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ha ve on e vi ol at io n, wh er e we re co mm en de d no ac ti on be

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t a k e n b y t he co u r t .

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ap pr op ri at e fo r hi m to be mo ve d to a cu rf ew .

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obj ect ion to tha t.

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T H E C O U R T:

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to co mp el th at is pe n di ng .

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th e go ve rn me nt .

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r eq ue st t o fi le a re sp on se in ex ce ss of 12 pa ge s .

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ha ve al re ad y re ad 21 pa ge s, I wi ll gr an t th at mo ti on .

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no w, an d so me pa rt s of yo ur br ie fs mo re th an tw ic e, I wi sh

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th at I ha d no t gr an te d th e fi rs t mo ti on to co mp el or an y

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of th e on es si nc e.

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Th e m ot io n t o ex ce ed pa ge li mi ts .

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ex ce ss ta lk in al l of yo ur pl ea di ng s th at ju st is no t

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ne ce ss ar y .

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ex ce ss pag es in re ga rd s to the go ve rn me nt 's mo ti on to

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compel.

THE C OURT:

He ha s b e e n i n c o m p l i a n c e.

He di d

At this time we do feel that it is

r. B ecker o r - -

R. HA MI LT ON :

Yo ur Ho no r, th e go ve rn me nt ha s no

All right.

The motion then will be

gr an te d an d th e re le as e bo nd wi ll be mo di fi ed as re qu es te d in the def end ant 's mot ion . S. SUL LI VA N: TH E CO UR T:

Th an k yo u, you r Ho no r.

I gu es s th e ne xt ma tt er is th e mo ti on I re ad th e re sp on se fi le d by

Th ey al so as ke d fo r an or de r gr an ti ng th e Si nc e I

Bu t I mu st sa y, ha vi ng re ad al l of yo ur br ie fs tw ic e

St ri ke th at .

No t mo ti on to co mp el . Th er e is a l ot o f

Be th at as i t ma y, I wi ll gr an t th e mo ti on for


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N ow , I r e a d t h o se p l e a di n g s .

Everybody seemed to want

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mo r e t i m e o n t h a t i s s u e f o r on e r ea s o n o r a no t h e r .

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do n 't kn ow i f yo u wa n t t o ad dr es s th at in an y w ay to da y o r

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no t ,

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rel eva nce or mat eri ali ty --

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br i e f l y s k i m t h e 2 1 p a g es s in c e it c a m e i n .

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sa y, ba se d on my pr el im in ar y su rv ey , th er e is so me

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su bs ta nt ia l di sp ut es .

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th ey ha ve as su re d us th at th ey ar e no t wi th ho ld in g an y

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in fo rm at io n th at is re le va nt to th e pe nd in g mo ti on s.

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as in di ca te d, al so in ou r mo ti on , if we do mo ve in to th e

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tr ia l ph as e, as th e ca se pr oc ee ds af te r th is he ar in g,

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th er e are now sepa ra te tria l-r el at ed issu es .

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wa n t t he o p p o r t u n i t y t o r e s p o n d to t h a t a n d a d d r e s s s o m e

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of th e cl ai ms th at I ve ry br ie fl y sa w in th e go ve rn me nt 's

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fi li ng la te la st ni gh t.

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T h a t i s a t l e a s t a w e e k to do th a t .

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pr e p a r a t i o n f o r t h i s he a r i n g we h a ve a l o t o f t hi n g s

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b a c k e d u p n e x t w e e k i n t e rm s of my o t h e r c l i e n t s' n ee d s .

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Bu t an y re as on ab le am ou nt of ti me , we ca n fi le a re sp on se .

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r. Fi em an .

I

Th e gov er nm en t say s the re i s n o

R. FIE MA N :

Yo ur Hon o r, I ha ve on ly bee n ab le to I can only

We wo ul d wa nt ti me to re sp on d, as

br i e f l y as po s s i b l e . Bu t as I in di ca te d in my in it ia l mo ti on to co mp el ,

Bu t

An d we woul d

Yo ur Ho no r, I wo ul d de fe r to th e co ur t o n ho w lo ng -o s t l y b e c a u s e in

I ca n te ll yo ur Ho no r th is wi ll sp il l ov er in to ch ai n


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of cu st od y an d Da ub er t is su es th at wi ll pr ob ab ly be ra is ed

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se pa ra te ly .

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ta lk ed abo ut so me sc he du li ng is su es th at th e go ve rn me nt

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ha s r ai se d wi th me in ter ms of th e tr ia l an d

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ava ila bil ity , pos sib ly to con fer aft er the hea rin g tod ay,

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if the ca se pr oc ee ds , an d su bm it a pr op os ed sc he du le to

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the cou rt.

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as ke d fo r fr om th e be gi nn in g, an d we th ou gh t we we re

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ge tt in g, wh ic h is th e --

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he ar in g yo u.

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Hi t th e sw it ch do wn by yo ur kn ee .

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th ou gh t th ey ag re ed to , wh ic h is th e NI T pr og ra mm in g co de .

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A s i n d i c a t e d , w e g o t a p i ec e of it .

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T ha t' s fi ne .

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sa id/ sh e sa id co nt es t, bu t the pa rt s th at ar e mi ss in g ar e

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imp ort ant for our tri al pre par ati on.

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It mi gh t be mo re ef fi ci en t, on ce we ha ve

TH E CO UR T: R. FIE MA N :

T H E CO U R T:

r. Be ck er 's

Ju st exa ct ly wha t ar e yo u as ki ng for ? Yo ur Hon o r, we ar e as ki ng for wh at w e

I ' m so r r y .

I am ha v i n g a h a r d ti m e

Wh y do n' t yo u ra is e th at who le thi ng up.

R. FIE MA N: TH E C OU RT : R. FIE MA N :

Is tha t be tt er , yo ur Hon or ? Ye s. Yo ur Hon o r, we ar e as ki ng for wh at w e

Th ey ha ve a di ff er en t un de rs ta nd in g of ou r ag re em en t. I do n' t wa nt to go bac kw ar ds an d ha ve a he

TH E CO UR T:

If I un de rs ta nd wh at yo u' re sa yi ng ,

yo u wa nt a li tt le mo re ti me to re sp on d?


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R. F IE MA N:

Ye s, y ou r Ho no r.

De fi ni te ly t ha t.

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T ha t' s wh er e I st ar te d.

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time?

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as k fo r a we ek from

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THE COURT:

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th e mo ti on to co mp el , we do n' t ha ve an ob je ct io n to th e

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de fe ns e ha vi ng th at ti me th at is re qu es te d to re sp on d.

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ce rt ai nl y --

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in ou r pl ea di ng , we do be li ev e th at we ha ve pr ov id ed

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su ff ic ie nt in fo rm at io n, and we do n' t be li ev e the re qu es t

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fo r ad di ti on al in fo rm at io n is ma te ri al .

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that posit ion.

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de fe ns e th ou gh t th at th is is su e wa s pe rt in en t to th is

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he ar in g, and ob vi ou sl y as ke d fo r an ex pe di te d he ar in g, an d

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w e a r e o n d i f f e r e n t f o o t i n g no w .

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di d re sp on d.

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h av e ob vi ou sl y be en --

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ha ve be en de al in g wi th th is we ek in ge tt in g re ad y fo r th is

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hearing.

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TH E CO UR T:

It is jus t a qu es ti o n o f ho w mu ch

Th at 's wh at I am as ki ng you , ho w mu ch

time. R. F I E M AN :

R. BE CK ER :

At least a week, your Honor.

on da y, actu al ly , re al is ti ca ll y. r. Becker. Yo ur Ho no r, as to th e sc he du li ng of

We di d th in k --

We c er t a i n l y - -

I would

Ob vi ou sl y, as yo u h av e se en

An d we ma in ta in

O v er t h e l a s t w e e k it s e e me d l i k e t h e

T h a t i s w ha t it is .

I ap ol og iz e fo r th e le ng th , yo ur Ho n or .

TH E CO UR T:

We

We We

Th er e ha ve be en a lo t of i ss ue s w e

It ta ke s mo re ti me to wr it e a sh o rt


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brief than a long one.

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ob je ct to th e ad di ti on al tim e.

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fl ag fo r th e co ur t, as we fl ag ge d in ou r re sp on se , in th e

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ev en t th at th e co ur t we re to fi nd th at th er e ar e ma te ri al

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is su es in vo lv ed , th at we ar e re qu es ti ng an ex pa rt e

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in ca mer a he ar in g in or de r to pr es en t fu rt he r in fo rm at io n

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p e r t i n e n t t o t h e l a w e nf o r c e m e n t p r i v i l e g e .

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on th is sc he du le , we do n' t ob je ct to th e de fe ns e ha vi ng

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mo r e t i m e t o r e s p o n d .

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12

he ar in g in te rm s of ot he r sc he du li ng ma tt er s.

09:45:23AM

13

pr e l i m i n a r y c o n v e r s at i o n s a bo u t a p o t e n t i al c o n t in u a n c e of

09:45:25AM

14

th e tr ia l da te in li gh t of th e nu me ro us is su es -- th e

09:45:29AM

15

pr e t r i a l i s s u e s w h i c h s t i l l ne e d t o b e r e s o l v e d .

09:45:31AM

16

th in k th e pa rt ie s ha ve an ey e to wa rd s be in g ab le to ag re e

09:45:35AM

17

on th at , in or de r th a t th e co ur t ca n de ci de al l of th e

09:45:38AM

18

pr e t r i a l m a t t e r s t h a t i t n e e d s t o d e c i d e .

09:45:41AM

19

TH E CO UR T:

09:45:44AM

20

sc he du li ng on thi s mo ti on .

09:45:50AM

21

r e s p o n s e f or a w e e k f r o m

09:45:56AM

22

ap pe ar s to me th at th e go ve rn me nt is th ro wi ng th e ga un tl et

09:45:59AM

23

do wn on th e qu es ti on of re le va nce an d ma te ri al it y of th e

09:46:04AM

24

re qu es te d in fo rm at io n.

09:46:25AM

25

gu es s, th e Tu es da y fo ll ow in g th at .

R. BE CK ER :

So me ti me s , yo ur H on or .

We do n 't

I ce rt ai nl y do wan t to

As l on g a s t h e c o ur t w i l l a t l e a s t h e a r t h a t r e qu e s t

I t h i n k w e c a n c o n f e r a f t e r t o d a y 's We ha ve ha d

A nd I

I th in k th e fi r st th in g he re is th e It is ap pr op ri at e to set

onday -- a reply, that is.

We wil l no te it up for

a It

th at , I

At th at po in t we wi ll


12

09:46:28AM

1

ha ve to de ci de wh at ot he r he ar in gs , if an y, ma y be

09:46:31AM

2

nec ess ary on tha t sub jec t.

09:46:34AM

3

09:46:40AM

4

kn ow th at that 's ap pr op ri at e in so me circ um st an ce s.

09:46:46AM

5

ch al le ng es du e pr oc es s.

09:46:55AM

6

in so fa r as we ca n wi th ou t th e ne ce ss it y of an y he ar in g or

09:47:01AM

7

in fo rm at io n th at is ke pt fr om the de fe nd an t.

09:47:04AM

8

09:47:06AM

9

09:47:09AM

10

th at li gh tl y at all .

09:47:12AM

11

su bs ta nt ia l ar gu me nt s th at ha ve be en ma de op en ly an d wi ll

09:47:16AM

12

b e m a d e o pe n l y .

09:47:19AM

13

su bs ta nt ia l au th or it y wi th in th e Ni nt h Ci rc ui t fo r the

09:47:22AM

14

re so lu ti on of is su es , su ch as th is , in pa rt vi a ex pa rt e

09:47:26AM

15

in ca me ra he ar in g by th e co ur t as a pa rt of th e re so lu ti on

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16

of the is su es .

09:47:32AM

17

09:47:35AM

18

09:47:38AM

19

09:47:40AM

20

th at yo ur Ho no r me nt io ne d fo r sc he du li ng , I am no t su re

09:47:42AM

21

wh a t d ay t h a t f a l l s o n .

09:47:46AM

22

ot he r tr ia l av ai la bi li ty an d ne ed s in ot he r di st ri ct s.

09:47:51AM

23

am ju st no t su re wh at da te yo ur Ho no r ha s su gg es te d, th at

09:47:53AM

24

Tuesday.

09:47:54AM

25

I am ver y re lu ct an t to ha ve an in cam er a he ar in g.

R. BECK ER : th at , yo ur Ho no r.

I It

I wo ul d ra th er de al wi th th at

We cert ai nl y un de rs ta nd and resp ec t

We don 't tak e ma ki ng a re qu es t li ke Ce rt ai nl y we hav e se t fo rt h

That said, we have also set forth

TH E CO UR T:

If tha t' s ne ce ss ar y we wil l de al wi th

th at af te r we ge t th e pl ea di ng s cl os ed . R. BE CK ER :

TH E CL ER K:

Yo ur Ho no r, in te rm s of th e Tu es da y

I d o h a v e s o m e t r i a l - - so m e

Th at wou ld be Fe br ua ry 2nd .


I

13

T H E CO U R T:

Okay.

W h e n I g e t th a t we wi l l ta k e a

09:48:03AM

1

09:48:06AM

2

09:48:14AM

3

09:48:22AM

4

09:48:24AM

5

re qu es t fo r a Fr an ks he ar in g.

09:48:30AM

6

R. FI EM AN :

09:48:35AM

7

p l e a d i n g s, ou r p o s i t i o n i s t h a t , g i v e n t h e i s su e s r e la t i n g

09:48:41AM

8

to the fo ur co rn er s of th e wa rr an t, th e un di sp ut ed fa ct s,

09:48:44AM

9

an d th e ex hi bi ts th at ha ve be en pr es en te d to th e co ur t, we

09:48:50AM

10

ha ve de fi ni te ly ma de a sh ow in g fo r th e Fr an ks he ar in g.

09:48:52AM

11

wi l l b r i e f ly s u m m a r i ze w h a t th a t i s i n a m o m e n t , pl u s s o m e

09:48:55AM

12

ne w in fo rm at io n th at ha s co me to li gh t.

09:48:58AM

13

09:49:01AM

14

w o u l d b e r e n d e r e d m o ot b a se d u p o n w h a t w e b el i e v e a re

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15

di sp os it iv e is su es th at are al re ad y be fo re th e co ur t.

09:49:09AM

16

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17

w e h a v e m et o u r b u r d en of s h o w i n g t h a t t h e r e i s a F r an k s

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18

is su e.

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19

ar e a ho st of is su es th at we fl ag ge d, pr im ar il y to tw o

09:49:23AM

20

th in gs :

09:49:29AM

21

mi s l e a d i n g s ta t e m e n t s a b o u t th e lo c a t i o n t o be s e a rc h e d ,

09:49:33AM

22

le ad in g to a wa rr an t on it s fa ce , as li mi te d to th e

09:49:36AM

23

Ea st er n Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia, wh il e th e wa rr an t was in

09:49:40AM

24

fa ct ex ec ut ed , in

09:49:43AM

25

lo ok at it an d de ci de th e fu tu re of th e mo ti on to co mp el . R. BE CK ER : TH E CO UR T:

Th an k yo u, yo ur Ho no r. Yo u wa nt to b e he ar d f ur th er on yo ur

Yo ur Ho no r, as se t fo rt h in ou r

I

Bu t th e Fr an ks he ar in g, as in di ca te d in my pl ea di ng s,

Bu t ad dr es si ng yo ur qu es ti on di re ct ly , we do be li ev e

An d th at is di re ct ed pr im ar il y -- al th ou gh th er e

Th at is , fi rs t of al l, in te nt io na ll y fa ls e or

r.

ic ha ud 's ca se , in Was hi ng to n.

Th e se co nd co re Fra nk s is su es is in te nt io na ll y or


14

09:49:47AM

1

re ck le ss ly mi sl ea di ng th e co ur t or fa il in g -- re ck le ss ly

09:49:52AM

2

fa il in g to ve ri fy th e ho me pa ge in fo rm at io n.

09:49:55AM

3

be l i e v e t h i s i s c r i t i c a l, b e c a u s e i t g o e s t o t h e h e a r t o f

09:49:58AM

4

the pro bab le cau se.

09:50:00AM

5

09:50:04AM

6

gov ern men t has ess ent ial ly hun g its pro bab le cau se

09:50:06AM

7

ar gu me nt on th e cl ai m th at th is wo ul d be im me di at el y

09:50:11AM

8

ap pa re nt as a de di ca te d ch il d po rn og ra ph y si te to ev en a

09:50:15AM

9

fi rs t ti me vi si to r, be ca us e th at' s al l th at ma tt er s

09:50:18AM

10

re al ly , is wh at 's on th e ho me pa ge , be ca us e th e wa rr an t

09:50:20AM

11

au th or iz ed th e se ar ch as of lo gg in g in on th e ho me pa ge .

09:50:24AM

12

09:50:28AM

13

an y te st im on y ev en re qu ir ed to re so lv e th at is su e in ou r

09:50:32AM

14

fa vo r.

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15

tw o po ss ib le ans we rs tha t th e ag en t co ul d gi ve .

09:50:37AM

16

di d no t ch ec k th e ho me pa ge af te r he vi ew ed it , I be li ev e,

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17

on Feb ru ar y 18 th .

09:50:48AM

18

wa r r a n t w as s u b m i t t e d o n th e 20 t h.

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19

fa ce va lu e.

09:50:54AM

20

th ey we re aw ar e at th e ti me of th e ex ec ut io n of th e se ar ch

09:50:56AM

21

wa r r a n t in Na p l e s , F l o r i d a , o n t h e 1 9 t h , w h e n t h e y s e i z e d

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22

th e we bs it e, th at th e lo go had ch an ge d.

09:51:09AM

23

09:51:11AM

24

pi c t u r e s t h a t w e r e o n t he b a n ne r a s o f F e b r u a r y 3 r d w e r e

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25

las civ iou s, and the ref ore qua lif ied -- cle arl y ind ica ted

An d we

Th e co ur t is aw ar e of Go ur de an d th e ot he r ca se s.

Th e

N ow , y o u r H o n o r , I d o n' t b e l i e v e i n f a c t t ha t t h e r e i s

An d I wi ll te ll yo u wh y.

Be ca us e the re ar e on ly On e is he

Th e si te w as se iz ed on th e 19 th , th e L e t ' s t ak e t h a t a t

We no w kn ow fr om go ve rn me nt ex hi bi ts th at

A nd r e a l l y i t c o m e s do w n t o t h a t i s s ue of w h e t h er t h e


15

09:51:22AM

1

po r n o g r a p h y .

T h a t p o i n t i s de b a t a b l e i n i t s e l f .

B ut i t

09:51:25AM

2

is a se co nd ar y po in t.

09:51:26AM

3

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4

va lu e, as it wa s at th e ti me th e wa rr an t wa s is su ed , i t i s

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5

cl ea rl y no t ad ve rt is in g its el f as a ch il d po rn og ra ph y

09:51:37AM

6

si te .

09:51:41AM

7

i nd ic at e in an y wa y it i s an y th in g ot he r th an a ch at o r a n

09:51:44AM

8

ero tic con ten t sit e.

09:51:46AM

9

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10

th in gs :

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11

w h i c h u n d e r t h e c i r c u m s t a nc e s , w i t h a d y n a m i c w e b si t e - -

09:51:57AM

12

Th e fa ct th at th e FB I in fa c t ha d co nt ro l of th e s it e as

09:52:01AM

13

of the 19 th, th e da y be fo re th e wa rr an t ap pl ic at io n, we

09:52:05AM

14

su bm it by an y co mm on se ns e me as ur e th at is a re ck le ss

09:52:08AM

15

fa il ur e to ve ri fy , pa rt ic ul ar ly wh en th er e ar e cl ai ms

09:52:11AM

16

abo ut the age nt' s exp eri enc e wit h int ern et inv est iga tio ns

09:52:13AM

17

an d th e dy na mi c na tu re of we bs it es .

09:52:16AM

18

09:52:19AM

19

lo go ha d ch an ge d, in wh ic h ca se I do n' t kn ow if an yt hi ng

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20

mo r e w ou l d n ee d t o b e s a i d a t a l l.

09:52:25AM

21

09:52:28AM

22

th e ne ed fo r a Fr an ks he ar in g in te rm s of th e Fr an ks

09:52:30AM

23

is su es in ev id en ce .

09:52:33AM

24

re ac h th at be ca us e we be li ev e th is ca se is re so lv ed on th e

09:52:37AM

25

fo ur co rn ers of th e wa rr an t ap pl ic at io n.

Th e po in t is , wh en yo u ta ke th e ho me pa ge at fa ce

Th er e is no la sc iv io us pi ct ur es .

It do es n' t

N ow , a s I s a i d , t h e of f i c e r c o u l d s a y on e of tw o Ei th er he di dn 't ch ec k af te r th e si te wa s se iz ed ,

Th e ot he r al te rn at iv e is th at he di d kn ow th at th e

So , yo ur Ho no r, we be li ev e we ha ve am pl y es ta bl is he d

We do no t be li ev e th e co ur t ne ed s to


16

TH E CO UR T:

To ju st if y a se pa ra te Fr an ks he ar in g

09:52:41AM

1

09:52:47AM

2

th er e has to be a su bs ta nt ia l pr el im in ar y sh ow in g th at a

09:52:51AM

3

fal se sta tem ent kno win gly and int ent ion all y, or wit h

09:52:54AM

4

re ck le ss di sr eg ar d fo r th e tr ut h, wa s in cl ud ed by th e

09:53:00AM

5

af fi an t; and , al so , th at th e al le ge d fa ls e st at em en t is

09:53:09AM

6

ne ce ss ar y to a fi nd in g of pr ob ab le ca us e.

09:53:13AM

7

09:53:14AM

8

h er e.

09:53:19AM

9

ot he r is su es in th e ca se re ga rd in g su pp re ss io n an d

09:53:23AM

10

su ff ic ie nc y of th e ap pl ic at io n, an d th ey ca n fai rl y be

09:53:29AM

11

re ac he d wi th ou t a se pa ra te Fr an ks he ar in g.

09:53:35AM

12

is jus t no t th e ne ce ss it y fo r th at hea ri ng .

09:53:41AM

13

th e sh ow in g is su ff ic ie nt un de r th at st an da rd .

09:53:44AM

14

09:53:46AM

15

09:53:47AM

16

09:53:50AM

17

09:53:53AM

18

09:53:55AM

19

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20

09:54:00AM

21

09:54:01AM

22

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23

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24

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25

I do n' t th in k th at pr el im in ar y sh ow in g ha s be en ma de I th in k th e is su es th at yo u ra is e ar e pa rt o f t he

R. FI EM AN :

I th in k th er e I do n' t th in k

Yo ur Ho no r, ju st to un de rs ta nd yo u,

w e a r e s t i l l a b l e t o ex p l o r e t ho s e f a c t u a l - T H E C O U R T:

I'm s orry.

R. FIE MA N :

What?

Yo ur Hon o r, jus t s o I 'm cle ar , we

wi l l s ti l l be a b l e t o a d d r es s t h e e v i d e n c e r e l a t ed t o - TH E C OU RT :

Su re .

R. FI EM AN :

-- al l of th os e pr ob ab le ca us e

app lic ati on iss ues -T H E C O U R T:

It is all part of the motion to

suppress. R. FI EM AN : TH E CO UR T:

Th an k yo u, yo ur Ho no r. Or m ot io ns t o su p pr es s.

Th e ne xt


17

09:54:11AM

1

m a t t e r i s t h e m o t i o n t o d i s m i s s ba s e d o n o u t r a g e o u s

09:54:25AM

2

go ve rn me nt co nd uc t.

09:54:37AM

3

wa n t to s ay a b o u t t h at .

09:54:38AM

4

09:54:42AM

5

a fe w th in gs I wa nt to sa y ab ou t th at .

09:54:45AM

6

in di ca te d in ou r in it ia l mo ti on to di sm is s, th e di sm is sa l

09:54:52AM

7

m o t i o n a l s o i n c l u d e s - - i t s a y s if t h e r e i s a l es s e r

09:54:57AM

8

rem edy tha t acc omp lis hes the sam e det err ent pur pos es, the

09:55:00AM

9

co ur t sh ou ld ta ke th at in to ac co un t.

09:55:03AM

10

09:55:06AM

11

09:55:07AM

12

09:55:09AM

13

ca se to be an d th e ve ry sp ec if ic is su es th at we th in k ar e

09:55:14AM

14

di sp os it iv e, ei th er in te rm s of di sm is sa l or fi nd in g

09:55:19AM

15

gr ou nd s fo r di sm is sa l an d ch oo si ng su pp re ss io n as an

09:55:26AM

16

appro priate remedy .

09:55:28AM

17

09:55:31AM

18

ab ou t, yo ur Ho no r.

09:55:35AM

19

co ns ti tu ti on al line to

09:55:41AM

20

leg iti mat e cha lle nge s try ing to inv est iga te int ern et

09:55:46AM

21

cr im e.

09:55:49AM

22

09:55:53AM

23

ca n un il at er al de te rm in e th e sc op e an d ex te nt of it s

09:55:57AM

24

inv est iga tor y pow ers wit hou t jud ici al ove rsi ght and in

09:56:02AM

25

de fi an ce of th e la ws , Ru le 41 in pa rt ic ul ar , an d th e

I wo ul d li ke to he ar an yt hi ng yo u

R. F I E M AN :

T h a n k y o u , y o u r Ho n o r .

A n d I do ha v e

Be ca us e wi th -- a s

A ga i n , w e a r e k i n d o f o v e r l a p p i n g w it h s o m e o f t h e suppr ession issues . I ju st wa nt to ve ry br ie fl y st at e wh er e we se e th is

Le t me ju st su mm ar iz e wh at w e se e th is ca se to be In so me wa ys it co me s do wn to a th e sa nd .

Th e go ve rn me nt has

W e d o no t di s pu te th at .

W h a t w e d o d i s p u t e i s w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e g ov e r n m e n t


18

09:56:07AM

1

re st ri ct io ns on il le ga l in ve st ig at io ns th at ar e on the

09:56:11AM

2

books.

09:56:12AM

3

09:56:17AM

4

wa r r a n t s t h a t a l l o w t h e m t o ex t e n d t h e i r p o w e r s .

09:56:20AM

5

w e b e l i e v e t he y c a n n ot do is e n ga g e i n t h i s k i n d o f

09:56:26AM

6

gam esm ans hip wit h jud ici al ove rsi ght tha t has bee n

09:56:30AM

7

ev id en ce d no t on ly th ro ug ho ut th is ca se bu t in a pa tt er n

09:56:34AM

8

of th es e te ch no lo gy ca se s th at is le ad in g, we th in k, to a

09:56:37AM

9

ver y sub sta nti al Fou rth Ame ndm ent and pri vac y rig hts

09:56:40AM

10

09:56:41AM

11

09:56:43AM

12

is su es ar e pr es en te d in th e co ur t in th e co nt ex t of th e

09:56:47AM

13

t yp e o f al le ga ti on s th at a re ma de in th is ca se .

09:56:50AM

14

we r e d e a l i ng w i t h b a nk f r au d or wh i t e c o l l a r d e f e n d a n t s

09:56:53AM

15

w h o ha d t he i r p r i v a t e c o mp u t e r s h ac k e d , t h e r e i s a

09:56:57AM

16

di ff er en t mo me nt um .

09:57:00AM

17

s t a n d s he r e - -

09:57:02AM

18

ot he r ca se s th ey ha ve ch ar ge d.

09:57:05AM

19

pr e s u m p t i o n o f i n n o c e n c e a s a m a n w h o h a s b ee n s u b j ec t e d

09:57:08AM

20

to a Wa sh in gt on se ar ch on th e ba si s of an in va li d Vi rg in ia

09:57:12AM

21

wa r r a n t .

09:57:16AM

22

09:57:20AM

23

go es to th e he ar t of th is di sm is sa l, an d al l of th e

09:57:23AM

24

issues.

09:57:26AM

25

an d c en te r.

N ow , t h e y c a n a d v o c a t e f o r ch a n g e s .

T h e y c an s e e k B ut w h a t

crisis. It is oft en unf ort una te tha t the se con sti tut ion al

We re co gn iz e th at .

T h i s i s hi s c a s e.

Bu t

If we

r.

ic ha ud

I t i s n o t ab o u t a ny

He sta nd s he re wi th the

That is the core of our claim.

N ow , y o u r H o n o r , I w a n t to ze r o i n o n on e i ss u e th a t

It is the one issue we raised --

And it is front

In al l th e re am s of pa pe r th e co ur t h as w ad ed


19

09:57:30AM

1

th ro ug h, th e go ve rn me nt ha s no t on ce re sp on de d to it .

09:57:35AM

2

th is is thi s:

09:57:40AM

3

Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia .

09:57:43AM

4

co mp ut er s, pe rs on s, an d pr op er ty in th e Ea st er n Di st ri ct

09:57:46AM

5

of Vi rg in ia .

09:57:48AM

6

f ac e o f th ei r wa rr an t s.

09:57:52AM

7

el se wh er e, Co lo ra do an d el se wh ere .

09:57:55AM

8

re al iz ed, af te r Ju dg e Sm it h' s de ci si on an d th ei r ow n

09:57:58AM

9

in te rn al po li ci es , th at Ru le 41 si mp ly di d no t al lo w th at ,

09:58:01AM

10

09:58:03AM

11

09:58:05AM

12

why we have been really hammering this, your Honor,

09:58:09AM

13

be c a u s e it is a b r i c k a nd m o r ta r i s s u e .

09:58:11AM

14

di sp ut e at th is po in t th at the se ar ch oc cu rr ed on

09:58:14AM

15

09:58:17AM

16

09:58:22AM

17

th e Ea st er n Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia to se ar ch mu lt ip le --

09:58:25AM

18

hu nd re ds of th ou sa nd s of ho us es in th e Ea st er n Di st ri ct of

09:58:28AM

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Vi r g i n i a , a n d t h e y t h e n d e c i d e d t h at t h e y w er e g o in g to

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ge t in th at ca r, dr iv e ac ro ss co un tr y, go in to

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21

09:58:39AM

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on the bas is of th at Vir gi ni a wa rr an t.

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no n -s t ar te r.

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no n- st ar te r be ca us e it vi ol at es wh at is th e pl ai n la ng ua ge

09:58:49AM

25

of th e wa rr an t it se lf , an d it is in vi ol at io n of th e

Th ey sou gh t a wa rr an t fr om the

An d

Ea st er n

Th ey go t au th or it y to se ar ch

Th ey dr af te d tha t wa rr an t.

Th ey cha ng ed th e

Th e y us ed to sa y in Ne br as ka an d An d on ce they

th ey si mp ly ed it ed th e wa rr an t. N ow , t a k i n g t h a t w a rr a n t a t f a c e v a l ue --

r.

And this is

T h e re is no

i ch au d in his hom e in Was hi ng to n. N ow , i m a g i n e i f t h e go v e r n m e n t h a d g o tt e n a w a r r a n t i n

r.

ic ha ud' s ho me , ex tr ac t in fo rm at io n fr om his comp ut er It wou ld be a

It wo ul d b e a n on -s ta rt er .

It wo ul d be a


20

ex ec ut io n li mi ts th at we re in th at wa rr an t.

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1

09:58:55AM

2

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to se t as id e al l of th es e te ch no lo gy is su es , al l of th is

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4

ba c k a nd f o r t h a b o u t w h o wa s t ru t h f u l , w h o w as n o t

09:59:06AM

5

tr ut hf ul , an d lo ok at th e fa ce of th e wa rr an t.

09:59:09AM

6

th is we re an y ot he r ca se , a dr ug bu st ca se , a ba nk fr au d

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7

ca se , we wo ul d be ov er no w.

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8

09:59:24AM

9

09:59:26AM

10

09:59:28AM

11

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12

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ob ta in in g th e wa rr an t an d ex ec ut in g th e NI Ts was

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ne ce ss ar y, th at th ey ha d no al te rn at iv es .

09:59:37AM

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statement.

09:59:38AM

16

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ti me pe op le log ge d in to the

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to al lo w ac ce ss to ac tu al po rn og ra ph y on th e si te.

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19

09:59:53AM

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no t th e fi rs t ti me th e go ve rn me nt ha s ru n a ch il d

09:59:55AM

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po r n o g r a p h y s i t e .

09:59:58AM

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se ve ra l ti me s be fo re , an d we ha ve re ce iv ed co nf ir ma ti on of

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that.

10:00:01AM

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Th is is a ve ry tr ou bl in g as pe ct of th e ca se .

10:00:04AM

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ar e th ey no t be in g ca nd id wi th th e co ur t in te rm s of

S o wh at I am as ki ng t he c ou rt to do , in so me s en se , is

Be ca us e if

A nd w r a p p e d u p in t h a t, y o ur H o n o r , is t h i s go ve rn me nt -- th e go ve rn me nt' s ar gu me nt th at so me ho w al l of th is wa s ne ce ss ar y. TH E CO UR T: R. FI E M AN :

Al l wh at ? A l l o f w h a t t h e y d i d i n t e r m s of

Th at is a fa ls e

Th is wa rr an t au th or iz ed th em to de pl oy NI Ts at th e ho me sit e.

Th ey did

no t ne ed

We h av e l e a r n e d a s o f l a s t ni g h t t h a t i n f ac t t h i s i s

I t h as a p p a r e nt l y b e e n d on e in s e cr e t

No t on ly


21

10:00:07AM

1

al lo wi ng ma gi st ra te s to su pe rv ise , or li mi t, or si mpl y

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2

ex er ci se fu ll re vi ew of the wa rr an t ap pl ic at io ns , th ey ar e

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3

no w no t ev en di sc lo si ng to th e co ur ts in al l of th es e

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4

ca se s th at th ey ar e pl an ni ng to co nt in ue th e di st ri bu ti on

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5

of ch il d po rn og ra ph y as pa rt of th ei r in ve st ig at io ns .

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6

10:00:29AM

7

a le gi ti ma te ar gu me nt fo r do in g th at as an in ve st ig at or y

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8

ne ed , wh ic h is no t tr ue , ju dg es ne ed to be ab le to de ci de

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9

if it is app ro pr ia te .

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10

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11

N ow , y o u r H o n o r , a s I a l s o in d i c a t e d , w r a pp e d u p w i t h

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th is di sm is sa l mo ti on is th e co re is su e of pr ob ab le ca us e,

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13

be c a u s e we do t h i n k i t is o u t r a g eo u s t h a t w he n p r e s e n t in g

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su ch a sw ee pi ng wa rr an t to a ma gi st ra te , th at in th is ca se

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15

au th or iz ed up to 10 0, 00 0 se ar ch es , th at th ey we re no t

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ca nd id or re sp on si bl e in te rm s of th e ke y fa ct s in th at

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pr o b a b l e c a u s e a s s e s sm e n t , w h i c h w a s t h e h o m e p ag e .

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18

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te ns of th ou sa nd s, po ss ib ly hu nd re ds of th ou sa nd s, of

10:01:29AM

20

se ar ch es an yw he re in th e wo rl d ba se d on pe op le si gn in g

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21

in to a we bs it e th at do es no t ev en ad ve rt is e it se lf as

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22

ha vi ng il le ga l co nt en t.

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is unprec edente d.

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24

10:01:49AM

25

We co n s i d e r t h a t o u tr a g e o u s , b e c a u s e e v e n if th e r e i s

An d, fra nk ly , we bel ie ve it is

appalling.

So wh at yo u en de d up wi th is a wa rr an t th at al lo we d

An d, fr an kl y, th e sc op e of th at

A nd w e h a v e n ' t e v e n go t t e n to t h e R ul e 41 v i o l a ti o n s , yo ur Ho no r, wh ic h I wi ll no t ad dr es s, be ca us e th at is a


22

separ ate matter .

10:01:51AM

1

10:01:52AM

2

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it se lf is ai di ng an d ab et ti ng the up lo ad in g an d

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4

di st ri bu ti on of ma ss iv e am ou nt s of ch il d po rn og ra ph y.

10:02:05AM

5

do n' t wa nt to so un d at al l se lf -ri gh te ou s ab ou t th is , yo ur

10:02:11AM

6

Ho no r, be ca us e I un de rs ta nd th e nu an ce s of cr im in al ca se s,

10:02:13AM

7

an d I de fe nd pe op le wh o are ch ar ge d wi th di st ri bu ti ng or

10:02:18AM

8

po s s e s s i n g ch i l d p o r n o g ra p h y , m o s t o b v i o u s l y .

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9

p e o p l e f a c e c r i m i n a l ch a r g e s .

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10

10:02:32AM

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10:02:36AM

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fo r di sm is sa l of th e in di ct me nt .

10:02:42AM

13

ch oo se th e le ss er re me dy th at co ur ts ha ve ap pr ov ed for

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14

ou tr ag eo us go ve rn me nt co nd uc t, of su pp re ss io n.

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15

be l i e v e , y o u r H o n o r , th a t t h i s i s a p i v o t al m o m e nt f o r

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16

pr i v a c y a nd c o n s t i t u t i o na l r i g h t s i n t h e d i g i t a l ag e .

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That is a lot for

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to lo se si gh t of th e ma n th a t is si tt in g he re , an d th e

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19

co ur t ha s ha d a ch an ce to as se ss .

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20

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be l i e v e s t h a t i t w a s p e r f e c t l y a l l o w e d t o d o w h a t it di d ,

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22

th en wh y di d th ey no t te ll Ju dg e Bu ch an an wh at th ey we re

10:03:21AM

23

do in g ab ou t ru nn in g a ch il d po rn og ra ph y si te ?

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24

th ey dr af t a wa rr an t th at cl ea rl y st at ed th at th ey wo ul d

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25

ex ec ut e it ou ts id e th e Ea st er n Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia ?

A nd a l l t h i s ti m e , w h i l e t h i s i s g o i ng on , t h e F B I

I

But those

All we are asking is that

the gov ern men t fac e jud ici al ove rsi ght . So , yo ur Ho no r, we be li ev e th at we ha ve st ro ng gr ou nd s

r.

We in vi te th e co ur t to

We

ichaud to bear, and we don 't want

Bu t th e co re of it is th is :

Ev en if th e go ve rn me nt

Wh y di dn 't


Wh y

23

ta ke th os e st ep s if th is is al l le ga l an d ap pr op ri at e?

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1

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2

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be l i e v e t he c o u r t c a n d i s p os e o f a l l t h e s e i s su e s b as e d

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4

si mp ly on th e fa ce of th e wa rr an t, th e go ve rn me nt' s

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5

fa il ur e to ex pl ai n th e di sc re pa nc y be tw ee n th e wa rr an t

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6

it se lf an d th e sc op e th at th ey cl ai m al lo we d th em fo r th e

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7

se ar ch es, an d th e di sc re pa nc y al so , yo ur Ho no r, be tw ee n

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8

th e fa ct th at no w we kn ow up to 10 0, 00 0 pe op le ac ce ss ed

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9

thi s sup pos edl y ded ica ted chi ld por nog rap hy sit e, and yet

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10

w e s e e n o e v i d e n c e , w h e n w e lo o k a t t h e h o m e p a g e it s e l f ,

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11

th at wa s not pr es en te d to th e ma gi st ra te in th e Ea st er n

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12

Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia ac cu ra te ly , th at in fa ct th is is a

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13

ve ry am bi gu ou s lo ca ti on .

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14

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br i n g i n g u s b a c k t o , a s I t hi n k I h a v e b e f o r e h e r e , t h e

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16

le ga l st an da rd s an d pr in ci pl es th at ap pl y.

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17

yo u do n't he ar in th e de fe nd an t's ar gu me nt ar e an y

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18

app lic ati ons of the m wha tso eve r.

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19

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la id ou t in de te rm in in g wh et he r or no t go ve rn me nt co nd uc t

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is qu ot e- un qu ot e ou tr ag eo us .

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W e b e l i e v e th e r e i s n o q u e st i o n t h at t h a t b a r i s no w h e r e

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ne ar me t in th is ca se .

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24

We ar e d e a l i ng w i t h ac t i o n s b y l a w e n f o r c e m e n t t h a t

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we r e n e c e ss i t a t e d b y t h e a c ti o n s o f t h e o f f e nd e r s c h oo s i n g

Yo ur Ho no r, I co me ba ck t o t he sam e ar gu m en t.

R. BEC KE R:

I

Th an k yo u, your Hono r.

Yo ur Hon or , I wo ul d st ar t by , ag ai n,

Be ca us e wh at

A nd t h e r e i s a s t a nd a r d t h at t h e N i n th C i r c u i t h a s

It is an ex tr em el y hi gh ba r.


24

10:05:44AM

1

to us e, an d in fa ct mi su se , te ch no lo gy in or de r to hi de

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2

th ei r id en ti ty wh il e th ey so ug ht to ex pl oi t an d ab us e

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3

child ren online .

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4

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5

pr o b l e m --

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6

borne out by the active use of this site.

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7

th er e we re so ma ny th ou sa nd s of us er s an d so mu ch ch il d

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8

po r n o g r a p h y b e i n g d i s t r ib u t e d l o n g b e f o r e l a w e n f o r c em e n t

10:06:15AM

9

ev er se iz ed it is an in di ca ti on of th e sc op e of th e

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10

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11

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t a k e?

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13

wa r r a n t t he d e f e n s e - - w h a t NI T w a rr a n t t h e d e f e n s e i s

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14

re ad in g an d wh at Ti tl e II I ap pl ic at io n th e de fe ns e is

10:06:36AM

15

re ad in g wh en th ey sa y th at the go ve rn me nt , th e FB I, to ok

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16

th es e ac ti on s wi th ou t ju di ci al ov er si gh t.

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17

wrong.

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18

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tec hni que unm ist aka bly adv ise d the mag ist rat e tha t the

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ch il d po rn og ra ph y we bs it e in vo lv ed he re wa s go in g to

10:07:00AM

21

re ma in op er at in g at a go ve rn me nt fa ci li ty in or de r for

10:07:04AM

22

tha t the n cou rt- aut hor ize d inv est iga tiv e tec hni que to be

10:07:09AM

23

deployed.

10:07:09AM

24

10:07:14AM

25

A nd l a w e n f o r c e m e n t re s p o n d e d t o t h a t e n o r m o u s T h e e n o r m i t y o f th a t p r o b l e m , y ou r H o no r , i s T he f a c t t h a t

pr o b l e m t h a t l a w e n f o r c em e n t f ac e d . In th e fa ce of th at , wh at ac ti on s di d la w en fo rc em en t T h e y w e n t t o t h e c o u r t.

I can't figure out what

Th at is si mp ly

It is i n c o r r e c t .

Th e af fi da vi t in su pp or t of th e ne tw or k in ve st ig at iv e

Th at wa rr an t ar ti cu la te d to

ag is tr at e Ju dg e Bu ch an an

w h y t ha t t e c h n i q u e w a s n e c e s sa r y , b e c a u s e w e w e r e d e a l in g


25

10:07:17AM

1

wi t h a w e b s i t e t h a t o p e r at e d on th e a n o n y m o u s To r n e t w or k .

10:07:23AM

2

Th at ch an ge s th e ga me in te rm s of wh at la w en fo rc em en t ha s

10:07:26AM

3

av ai la bl e to the m in ord er to id en ti fy use rs .

10:07:30AM

4

l ai d ou t in de ta il in th e NI T wa rr an t af fi da vi t.

10:07:35AM

5

re as on ab le re ad in g of th at af fi da vi t wo ul d sh ow th at th e

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6

ma g i s t r a t e wo u l d n o t ha v e k no w n t h at t h e s i t e wa s g oi n g to

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7

co nt in ue to op er at e at a go ve rn me nt fa ci li ty .

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8

direc tly stated .

10:07:46AM

9

10:07:51AM

10

Un it ed St at es Di st ri ct Co ur t ju dg e al so ar ti cu la te d th at

10:07:55AM

11

th e we bs it e wo ul d re ma in op er at in g at a go ve rn me nt

10:07:58AM

12

fa ci li ty, an d th at th e Un it ed St at es , th e FB I, wa s go in g

10:08:01AM

13

to se ek an d ob ta in au th or iz at io n to de pl oy a ne tw or k

10:08:05AM

14

in ve st ig at iv e te ch ni qu e on its use rs .

10:08:08AM

15

re as on s wh y, ag ai n, th e ne ce ss ity of th e si te ha vi ng to

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16

re ma in op er at in g in or de r to de pl oy th at so rt of

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17

technique.

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18

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no t ju di ci al ov er si gh t in vo lv ed he re wh en th e ac ti on s th at

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20

la w en fo rc em en t to ok we re ju di ci al ly ap pr ov ed .

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21

judic ial oversi ght.

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22

10:08:35AM

23

in te rm s of th e di sm is sa l is su e:

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24

st an da rd ac co rd in g to th e Ni nt h Ci rc ui t.

10:08:48AM

25

th at th e Ni nt h Ci rc ui t ha s co ns is te nt ly re fu se d to fi nd

Th at is An d no

It is

Th e Ti tl e II I af fi da vi t an d ap pl ic at io n ap pr ov ed by a

It di sc us se d th e

So I ju st do n' t un de rs ta nd th e ar gu me nt th at th er e wa s

Th at is

So br in gi ng us ba ck to th e st an da rd s he re , yo ur Ho no r, Ag ai n, ex tr em el y hi gh So hi gh in fa ct


26

10:08:52AM

1

out rag eou s gov ern men t con duc t whe re the gov ern men t use d

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2

so -c all ed re ve rs e st in gs ; th at is , wh er e th er e wa s no

10:08:59AM

3

cr im in al en te rp ri se th at wa s go in g on , th e go ve rn me nt

10:09:03AM

4

c re at ed o r ca me up wi th so rt o f a fa ke sc he me in wh ic h

10:09:08AM

5

de fe nd an ts pa rt ic ip at ed and were char

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6

so rt s of sc en ar io s, wh ic h is va st ly di ff er en t th an th is

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7

sc en ar io, th e Ni nt h Ci rc ui t ha s no t fo un d ou tr ag eo us

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8

conduct.

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9

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10

in vo lv e a si x- fa ct or anal ys is.

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11

cri min al cha rac ter ist ics of the def end ant ; whe the r the re

10:09:33AM

12

w a s i n di v i d u a l i z e d s u s p ic i o n of th e d e f e n d a n t; t h e

10:09:36AM

13

go ve rn me nt 's ro le in cr ea ti ng , if at al l, th e cr im e of

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14

con vic tio n; the gov ern men t's enc our age men t, if at all , of

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15

th e de fe nd an t to co mm it the pa rt ic ul ar co nd uc t; the na tu re

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16

of the go ve rn me nt 's pa rt ic ip at io n in th e co nd uc t; an d th e

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17

na tu re of th e cr im e be in g pu rs ue d; th e ne ce ss it y fo r th e

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18

ac ti on s ta ke n in li gh t of th e cr im in al en te rp ri se at

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19

issue.

10:09:58AM

20

Yo ur Ho no r, as we ha ve ar gu ed in ou r br ie fi ng , al l of

10:10:01AM

21

th os e fa ct or s we ig h he av il y in fa vo r of th e go ve rn me nt 's

10:10:04AM

22

co nd uc t be in g re as on ab le in th is ca se -- in th is

10:10:10AM

23

inv est iga tio n in res pon se to the par tic ula r con cer ns

10:10:12AM

24

i n v o l v e d.

10:10:17AM

25

im po rt an t th at we ar e ta lk in g ab ou t th e on li ne se xu al

ge d.

Ev en in th os e

Bu t th e st an da rd s he re , as la id do wn by th e ci rc ui t, It invo lv es the

And the crime does matter.

kn ow n

I t i s no t - - it is


27

10:10:23AM

1

ex pl oi ta ti on of ch il dr en .

Th at do es su bs ta nt iv el y ma tt er

10:10:26AM

2

in te rm s of th e pu bl i c sa fe t y an d in te re st s a t st a ke .

10:10:30AM

3

do es ma tt er th at th es e of fe nd er s we re ac ti ng onl in e,

10:10:35AM

4

mi s u s i n g a To r t e c h n ol o g y f or t h e i r o w n c r i m i n a l ai m s ,

10:10:38AM

5

m a k i n g i t e x t r e m e l y d i f f i c ul t f o r t h e m t o b e i d e n t i f i e d .

10:10:42AM

6

Tha t abs olu tel y mat ter s.

10:10:46AM

7

10:10:49AM

8

di ff er en t or ap pl y di ff er en tl y be ca us e of th e su bj ec t

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9

matter of the crime --

10:10:56AM

10

to im pl y th at be ca us e th is cr im e in vo lv es ch il dr en th at

10:11:01AM

11

so me ho w we wi ll gi ve mo re la ti tu de to th e go ve rn me nt in

10:11:06AM

12

s om e wa ys .

10:11:09AM

13

t ha t i s th e ca se at al l.

10:11:11AM

14

10:11:14AM

15

m e a n s t h e r e i s a c o m p e l l i n g in t e r e s t a n d n e e d t o

10:11:17AM

16

in ve st ig at e th e pe rp et ra to rs, to id en ti fy th em an d to

10:11:20AM

17

ap pr eh en d th em , no t ju st to sh ut do wn th e fa ci li ti es

10:11:26AM

18

thr oug h whi ch the y fac ili tat e and dis tri but e unl awf ul

10:11:31AM

19

contraband.

10:11:32AM

20

10:11:35AM

21

th e pa rt ic ul ar fa ct or s, yo ur Ho no r.

10:11:39AM

22

cha rac ter ist ics , the kno wn cri min al cha rac ter ist ics of

10:11:41AM

23

use rs, ind ivi dua liz ed sus pic ion of the def end ant :

10:11:46AM

24

Ce rt ai nl y at th e ou ts et of the in ve st ig at io n he re th e

10:11:49AM

25

go ve rn me nt wa sn 't aw ar e of any co nd uc t by

It

Th e su gg es ti on th at so me ho w th e st an da rd s wo ul d be

I t hi n k th e d e f e n se s o r t o f w a n t s

An d th at is ce rt ai nl y not --

I do n' t be li e ve

Th e fa ct th at th e cr im es do in vo lv e ch il dr en , th ou gh ,

I wo ul d li ke to go th ro ug h on a mo re in di vi du al ba si s Th e fi rs t tw o

ic ha ud .


Th at

28

10:11:53AM

1

is be ca us e he wa s ac ti ng an on ym ou sl y on th e To r ne tw or k.

10:11:56AM

2

W e k n o w t h a t h e j o i n ed t h i s we b s i t e l o n g b e f o r e t h e

10:12:01AM

3

go ve rn me nt ev er to ok ac ti on s to ta ke it ov er .

10:12:04AM

4

10:12:08AM

5

cr im in al us er s of th is we bs it e of en ga gi ng in th e

10:12:11AM

6

tra ffi cki ng of chi ld porno gra phy:

10:12:14AM

7

an d re ce ip t.

10:12:17AM

8

th e wa y th e si te wo rk s.

10:12:19AM

9

10:12:22AM

10

th ei r di sm is sa l mo ti on s, th e de fe ns e co nc ed es an d in fa ct

10:12:27AM

11

aff irm ati vel y arg ues tha t thi s web sit e fac ili tat ed chi ld

10:12:32AM

12

po r n o g r a p h y o n a m a s s i v e s c a l e.

10:12:34AM

13

on th e su pp re ss io n si de of th in gs th at th ey wa nt to sh if t

10:12:37AM

14

th ei r ar gu me nt to th is we bs it e be in g me re ly a di sc us si on

10:12:41AM

15

fo ru m an d no th in g el se .

10:12:43AM

16

wa y s , y o u r Ho n o r .

10:12:44AM

17

10:12:48AM

18

thr oug h whi ch sub sta nti al amo unt s of chi ld por nog rap hy

10:12:49AM

19

we r e t r a f f ic k e d a n d d i s t r ib u t e d l o ng b e f o r e t h e g o v e r n m e n t

10:12:52AM

20

to ok sp ec if ic ac ti on s ag ai ns t the si te .

10:12:55AM

21

10:12:58AM

22

cle arl y leg iti mat e tar get s of gov ern men t inv est iga tio n.

10:13:01AM

23

A n d t ha t h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h an y t h i n g t h e g o v e r n m e n t

10:13:03AM

24

cr ea te d in te rm s of th e cr im in al sc he me .

10:13:07AM

25

use rs' cri min al sch eme .

Bu t th er e wa s ce rt ai nl y go od re as on to su sp ec t th e

Acc ess , dis tri but ion ,

An d th at is bo rn e ou t by th e in ve st ig at io n,

As th e d e f e n se c o n ce d e s -- at l e a s t in t h e c o n t e x t o f

I t i s o n l y w h e n th e y a r e

We ll , th ey can 't hav e it bot h

Th e fa ct is , th is wa s a ch il d po rn og ra ph y we bs it e,

A nd s o t h e i n d i v i d ua l - - t h e u s e r s o f t h i s s i t e ,

Th at wa s th os e


29

Th at lea ds int o th e ne xt fac to r, you r Ho no r.

An d th at

10:13:09AM

1

10:13:13AM

2

is , ag ai n, di d th e go ve rn me nt pl ay a ro le in th e cr ea ti on

10:13:16AM

3

of th e cri me i n whi ch th is d ef en da nt ,

10:13:20AM

4

ac cu se d?

10:13:26AM

5

m e r e l y a t t a c h e d i t s e lf to o ne t h a t w a s a l r ea d y e s t ab l i s h e d

10:13:29AM

6

an d on go in g.

10:13:32AM

7

ou tr ag eo us go ve rn me nt co nd uc t.

10:13:35AM

8

FB I, di dn 't cr ea te th is web si te .

10:13:39AM

9

us er s and it s ad mi ni st ra to rs, and ex is te d an d

10:13:44AM

10

sub sta nti all y dis tri but ed chi ld por nog rap hy lon g bef ore

10:13:46AM

11

th e go ve rn me nt ev er to ok it ov er in an ef fo rt to ac tu al ly

10:13:49AM

12

ide nti fy its cri min al use rs.

10:13:52AM

13

10:13:56AM

14

pa r t i c i p a t e i n t h e c r i me s at i ss u e ?

10:13:59AM

15

ab so lu te ly no t th e ca se .

10:14:05AM

16

Pe wt er , jo in ed th e we bs it e on Oc to be r 31 st , 20 14 , lo ng

10:14:09AM

17

b e f o r e l a w en f o r c e m e nt e v e r re c e i v e d t h e w e b s i t e.

10:14:13AM

18

go ve rn me nt ha d no th in g to do wi th hi s in de pe nd en t de ci si on

10:14:15AM

19

to ass oci ate him sel f wit h thi s cri min al ent erp ris e.

10:14:18AM

20

10:14:22AM

21

it res po ns ib le --

10:14:24AM

22

di d re sp on si bl e fo r

10:14:29AM

23

ag ai ns t a fi nd in g of ou tr ag eo us co nd uc t he re .

10:14:31AM

24

10:14:34AM

25

r.

i ch au d, is

He re , an d th e la w be ar s th is ou t, th e go ve rn me nt

Th at we ig hs ag ai ns t an y fi nd in g of Th e Un it ed St at es, the It wa s cr ea te d by its

Di d th e go ve rn me nt en co ur ag e th e de fe nd an t to W e k n o w t h a t is

Th e de fe nd an t, hi s us er ac co un t

The

Th e na tu re of th e go ve rn me nt 's pa rt ic ip at io n, and wa s Wa s th e na tu re of wh at th e go ve rn me nt ic ha ud 's cr im es ?

Ag ai n, we ig hs

Di d th e go ve rn me nt ac t as a pa rt ne r in th e cr im in al ac ti vi ty, or mo re of an ob se rv er in th e de fe nd an t's


30

10:14:38AM

1

cr im in al cond uc t?

We ll , he re , ag ai n, the

si te wa s al re ad y

10:14:42AM

2

op er at in g, ha d op er at ed fo r si x mo nt hs .

10:14:47AM

3

th e go ve rn me nt al lo we d it to co nt in ue to op er at e on a

10:14:49AM

4

go ve rn me nt se rv er in or de r to ta ke sp ec if ic

10:14:52AM

5

cou rt- aut hor ize d act ion s to att emp t to ide nti fy use rs and

10:14:55AM

6

mo n i t o r u s e r c o m m u n i c a t i o n s.

10:14:58AM

7

Th e go ve rn me nt , th e FB I, di d no t po st an y li nk s,

10:15:03AM

8

vi de os -- an y im ag es , vi de os , or li nk s to im ag es , or

10:15:07AM

9

vi de os of ch il d po rn og ra ph y.

10:15:11AM

10

court- author ized monito ring, condu cted court- author ized

10:15:15AM

11

de pl oy me nt of th e NI T in or de r to co ll ec t in fo rm at io n th at

10:15:18AM

12

w o u l d h e l p id e n t i f y t h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e a c t u a l l y

10:15:20AM

13

pe r p e t r a t i n g t h e c r i m e s .

10:15:22AM

14

10:15:26AM

15

w o u l d h a v e th e t e c h n i c a l e xp e r t i s e o r r e s o u r c e s n e c e s s a r y

10:15:31AM

16

to co mmi t su ch a cr im e wi th ou t th e go ve rn me nt 's

10:15:34AM

17

in te rv en ti on .

10:15:37AM

18

10:15:39AM

19

re ce iv in g ch il d po rn og ra ph y th at ha ve no th in g to do wi th

10:15:42AM

20

th e we bs it e at is su e, ba se d on im ag es th at we re fo un d on

10:15:45AM

21

hi s de vi ce s th at we re se iz ed fr om hi s ho me , or pu rs ua nt to

10:15:50AM

22

ot he r re si de nt ia l se ar ch wa rr an ts .

10:15:54AM

23

te ch ni ca l ab il it y to na vi ga te Tor an d ge t to th is we bs it e,

10:15:58AM

24

be c a u s e he jo i n e d i t lo n g b e f or e l a w e n f o r c e m e n t to o k i t

10:16:02AM

25

over.

Fo r 14 br ie f da ys

The FBI con du ct ed

A n o th e r f a c t or in t h i s p a r t i s w h e th e r t h e d e f e n d a n t

r.

i ch au d.

Un do ub te dl y th at is the

ca se with

He is ch ar ge d w it h co un ts of po ss es si ng an d

He cl ea rl y ha d the


31

Th is is an ot he r ar ea wh er e th e de fe ns e fo cu se s on --

10:16:02AM

1

10:16:06AM

2

a wa y fr om

10:16:09AM

3

c as e, an d mo re on th e ot he r us er s of th e we bs it e .

10:16:12AM

4

c as e i s ab ou t

10:16:16AM

5

w a s hi s c o n du c t , a n d w a s th e g o v e rn m e n t r e s p o n s i b l e f o r

10:16:20AM

6

t ha t co nd uc t?

10:16:23AM

7

an y dir ec t co nt ac t wit h

10:16:31AM

8

Th e de fe ns e do es n' t al le ge th at , an d ne it he r do es th e

10:16:34AM

9

government.

10:16:34AM

10

10:16:37AM

11

hi ms el f wi th a cr im in al en te rp ri se th at wa s la te r ta ke n

10:16:39AM

12

ov er .

10:16:43AM

13

go t in fo rm at io n to he lp id en ti fy hi m, an d no th in g mo re .

10:16:47AM

14

10:16:50AM

15

ne ed fo r the in ve st ig at iv e te ch ni qu e us ed in li gh t of th e

10:16:53AM

16

ch al le ng es of in ve st ig at in g an d pr os ec ut in g th e ty pe of

10:16:56AM

17

cr im e be in g in ve st ig at ed .

10:16:59AM

18

ab so lu te ly we ig hs in fa vo r of the go ve rn me nt 's co nd uc t

10:17:03AM

19

b e i n g r e a s o n a b l e i n l i g ht of t he c i r c u m s t an c e s , t h e

10:17:08AM

20

go ve rn me nt go in g to co ur ts -- no t ju st on e co ur t, bu t

10:17:11AM

21

cou rts , for app rov al for the inv est iga tiv e tec hni que tha t

10:17:15AM

22

w a s u se d , f o r t h e T i t l e I I I mo n i t o r i n g t h a t w a s u s e d ,

10:17:18AM

23

di sc lo si ng to th os e co ur ts the ne ce ss it y fo r th is

10:17:22AM

24

te ch ni qu e, th e fa ct th at th is si te ha d to co nt in ue to

10:17:24AM

25

op er at e in or de r to gi ve la w en fo rc em en t an op po rt un it y to

r.

ic ha ud , th e ac tu al de fe nd an t he re in th is

r.

Th is

ic ha ud , wh at is he ch ar ge d wit h, w ha t

An d th e an sw e r is ju st no . r.

Th er e w as n' t

ic ha ud du ri ng th e op er at io n.

Th e fa ct is he ma de an in de pe nd en t ch oi ce to as so ci at e

An d be ca us e th e go ve rn me nt di d th at , we ev en tu al ly

So th at co me s ar ou nd to th e la st fa ct or , wh ic h is th e

Th is fa ct or , yo ur Hono r,


32

10:17:27AM

1

id en ti fy th e pe rp et ra to rs .

It wa s a br ie f co nt in ue d

10:17:32AM

2

op er at io n, ag ai n, an en te rp ri se th at ha d ex is te d fo r si x

10:17:36AM

3

m o n t h s, r at h e r t h a n s h u t i t do w n t h e d a t e o f s e i z u r e , 1 4

10:17:39AM

4

mo r e d a y s, an d t h a t ' s a ll , i n a n e f f o r t t o u se

10:17:42AM

5

co ur t- au th or iz ed te ch ni qu es to mo ni to r us er s in the ho pe

10:17:46AM

6

of ide nti fyi ng the m.

10:17:47AM

7

10:17:56AM

8

en fo rc em en t co ul d ha ve ma de th e de ci si on of sh ut te ri ng th e

10:17:58AM

9

we b s i t e on th e d a t e t h a t i t wa s s ei z e d .

10:18:01AM

10

co nt ex ts of in ve st ig at io n th at is al so th e ca se .

10:18:04AM

11

lon g-te rm fra ud inv est iga tio ns, in lon g-t erm nar coti cs

10:18:08AM

12

inv est iga tio ns, the re are inn ume rab le poi nts in whi ch law

10:18:13AM

13

en fo rc em en t ca n de ci de to ta ke an ac ti on wh ic h wo ul d

10:18:16AM

14

sh ut te r th e or ga ni za ti on .

10:18:19AM

15

w h i c h l a w e n f o r c e m e n t f a c e s t h o s e s o r t s o f c h o i c es .

10:18:25AM

16

10:18:29AM

17

w o u l d h a v e s to p p e d c r i m in a l s f r o m b e i n g a b l e t o u s e t h a t

10:18:32AM

18

we b s i t e in or d e r t o t r a f f i c c h i l d p o r n o g r a p h y i ma g e s an d

10:18:37AM

19

vi de os on To r.

10:18:40AM

20

pa r t i c u l a r fa c i l i t y .

10:18:43AM

21

no t pu t an en d to th e us er s' ab il it y to co nt in ue

10:18:48AM

22

co mm it ti ng th os e cr im es , to th e us er s' ab il it y to co nt in ue

10:18:51AM

23

to ab us e ch il dr en , pr od uc e im ag es , an d th en sh ar e th em

10:18:55AM

24

wi t h o t h er s , a n d t o t h e u s e r s ' a b i l i t y t o t ra f f i c in th o s e

10:18:59AM

25

im ag es .

N ow , i t i s c e r t ai n l y t he c a s e , y o u r H o no r , t h a t la w

In many other In

Th is is no t th e on ly co nt ex t in

So he re , th e sh ut ti ng do wn th at we bs it e un do ub te dl y

It wou ld hav e ta ke n aw ay tha t o ne B ut it c e rt a i n l y w o u l d n o t an d di d

An d th at is be ca us e wi th ou t ta ki ng ac ti on to


33

10:19:01AM

1

id en ti fy the pe rp et ra to rs, th os e pe rp et ra to rs go on an d

10:19:06AM

2

co nt in ue wi th th ei r cr im in al co nd uc t, an d as we ha ve

10:19:08AM

3

ar ti cu la te d in ou r fi li ng s, si mp ly cr ea te ne w we bs it es

10:19:13AM

4

th at op er at e th e sa me or si mi la rl y.

10:19:15AM

5

10:19:18AM

6

po r n o g r a p h y w e b s i t e s th a t o p e r a t e s i m i l a r ly to t h i s

10:19:21AM

7

pa r t i c u l a r s it e , u s e rs w h o c a n r e m a i n a n o n y m o u s w h i l e

10:19:26AM

8

tr af fi ck in g in ch il d po rn og ra ph y, an d us er s wh o re mai n

10:19:29AM

9

uni den tif ied , cri min als who rem ain ed uni den tif ied.

10:19:31AM

10

10:19:34AM

11

ob li ga ti on of la w en fo rc em en t for th e go ve rn me nt is to

10:19:37AM

12

ta ke so me ac ti on to id en ti fy th e pe rp et ra to rs , an d

10:19:41AM

13

id en ti fy the vi ct im s, an d to ge t th os e ch il dr en aw ay ,

10:19:44AM

14

w h e r e w e c a n, f r o m t h o s e a b us e r s .

10:19:48AM

15

Th at' s th e ne ce ss it y be hi nd a si te li ke th is co nt in ui ng to

10:19:52AM

16

op er at e, so th at cr uc ia l IP ad dr es s in fo rm at io n, wh ic h

10:19:58AM

17

ul ti ma te ly le ad s to be in g ab le to id en ti fy a pe rp et ra to r,

10:20:02AM

18

b e i n g a b l e to u s e f u rt h e r i n v e s t ig a t i o n a n d l e ga l

10:20:06AM

19

pr o c e s s e s, to t h e n t a k e t h a t IP i nf o r m a t i on a n d t r a n s l a t e

10:20:09AM

20

it in to id en ti fy in g a pe rs on wh o is tr af fi ck in g in ch il d

10:20:12AM

21

po r n o g r a p h y , o r a b u s i n g a c hi l d an d t r a f f ic k i n g i n c h i l d

10:20:14AM

22


10:20:15AM

23

10:20:20AM

24

th e go ve rn me nt 's ac ti on s he re .

10:20:23AM

25

th e ne ce ss it y of id en ti fy in g th e pe rp et ra to rs , no t ju st

As of t o d a y , o n t h e To r n e tw o r k , t h e re a r e c h i l d

Ju st shu tt in g do wn the web si te is no t en ou gh .

Th e

T h a t ' s t h e p u r po s e .

S o i t is in th at co n te xt th at th e co ur t ha s to vi ew An d vi ew ed in th at li gh t,


34

10:20:28AM

1

ta ki ng aw ay on e pa rt ic ul ar pl ac e wh er e th ey ca n

10:20:31AM

2

pe r p e t r a t e , b u t t a k i ng a c t i on - - w h e r e t h e y h a d t h e

10:20:33AM

3

op po rt un it y an d th e co ur t au th or iz at io n to do so , ta ki ng

10:20:38AM

4

th at ac ti on to ta ke th at st ep to id en ti fy th e vi ct im s,

10:20:45AM

5

ju st if ie s th e -- ag ai n, co mb in ed wi th th e co ur t

10:20:48AM

6

aut hor iza tio n her e, you r Hon or, jus tif ies the act ion s

10:20:49AM

7

t a k e n b y l aw en f o r c e m e n t .

10:20:53AM

8

ou tr ag eo us co nd uc t by law

10:20:55AM

9

la w en fo rc em en t th at is ne ce ss ary to en fo rc e the la w.

10:21:00AM

10

10:21:03AM

11

ab ou t th e -- at ti me s, ab ou t th e le ga li ty of th e ac ti on s

10:21:07AM

12

in te rm s of la w en fo rc em en t ta ki ng en fo rc em en t ac ti on s

10:21:12AM

13

th at wh en co mm it te d by a pr iv at e ci ti ze n wo ul d be

10:21:15AM

14

otherw ise illega l.

10:21:16AM

15

10:21:18AM

16

re co gn iz ed , an d ha ve re co gn iz ed fo r a lo ng ti me th at th at

10:21:21AM

17

oc cu rs , th at in th e co ur se of en fo rc in g la ws , la w

10:21:25AM

18

en fo rc em en t of te n co mm it s ac ti on s th at wh en co mm it te d by a

10:21:28AM

19

pr i v a t e c i t iz e n w o u l d o t he r w i s e be u n l a w f ul .

10:21:32AM

20

do es n' t me an th at la w en fo rc em en t is no t pe rm it te d to ta ke

10:21:34AM

21

th os e so rt s of ac ti on s du ri ng the co ur se of en fo rc in g th e

10:21:37AM

22

la w .

10:21:43AM

23

10:21:46AM

24

p o i n t t h e c o u r t t o U n i te d S t a te s v e r s u s

10:21:51AM

25

F. 3d 467 , pa rt ic ul ar ly Pa ge 472 .

I n t er ms of th e --

These are not -en fo rc em en t.

It is no t

Th is is co nd uc t by

T he de f en se ha s ra is e d so me i ss ue s

Th at is so me th in g th at , of co ur se , co ur ts ha ve

Bu t t h a t

An d th at is th e co nt e xt th at we op er at e d i n he re .

Fo r th e le ga l pr in ci pl e on th at , yo ur Ho no r, I wo ul d ack, that is 164

Th at is a 19 99 Nin th


35

10:21:59AM

1

Ci rc ui t op in io n.

ac k as se ss ed a si tu at io n wh er e lo ca l

10:22:03AM

2

la w en fo rc em en t ag en ci es we re fo un d to be ab le, wi th ou t

10:22:07AM

3

com mit tin g cri mes aga ins t oth er -- wit hou t com mit tin g

10:22:10AM

4

cr im es ag ai ns t -- po ss es si on of pr oh ib it ed we ap on s, th at

10:22:15AM

5

in or de r to en fo rc e th e la w th ey we re pe rm it te d to po ss es s

10:22:19AM

6

th os e, ev en wh er e po ss es si on wo ul d be un la wf ul if do ne by

10:22:21AM

7

a pr iv at e ci ti ze n, an d th en ta ke ac ti on to pr os ec ut e

10:22:25AM

8

defendants.

10:22:27AM

9

10:22:31AM

10

la w ha s lo ng re co gn iz ed th e re ac h of a

10:22:33AM

11

str ict ly- con str uct ed sta tut e sto ps sho rt of non sen sic al

10:22:37AM

12

co ns eq ue nc es .

10:22:40AM

13

st at ut e sh al l be co ns tr ue d to ex em pt th e go ve rn me nt if

10:22:43AM

14

ap pl ic at io n of th e st at ut e to the go ve rn me nt wo ul d cr ea te

10:22:45AM

15

an absurd ity."

10:22:47AM

16

10:22:49AM

17

ch il d po rn og ra ph y cr im es , it is ob vi ou sl y ne ce ss ar y fo r

10:22:52AM

18

la w en fo rc em en t to en ga ge in ac ti on s th at wo ul d -- wh en

10:22:56AM

19

p e r f o r m e d b y a p r i v a te i n d i v i d u al , w o u l d o t h e r w i se b e

10:22:59AM

20

illegal.

10:23:00AM

21

10:23:02AM

22

we b s i t e , s u c h a s t h e o n e i n th i s c a s e , l a w e n f o r c e m e n t h a s

10:23:05AM

23

to ac ces s it in an un de rc ov er ca pa ci ty , an d ac ce ss ch il d

10:23:09AM

24

po r n o g r a p h y i n a n u n de r c o v e r c ap a c i t y .

10:23:12AM

25

vi ol at io n of law

The cou rt rec ogn ize d the lon gst and ing pri nci ple , "Th e

Th e Su pr em e Co ur t ha s re co gn iz ed that

a

He re , in th e co nt ex t of th e in ve st ig at io n of on li ne

Fo r ex am pl e, in or de r to re vi ew an d do cu me nt a

That would be a

if don e by a pr iv at e in di vi du al .


We

36

10:23:16AM

1

ce rt ai nl y do n' t lo ok at th at as a vi ol at io n of th e la w

10:23:19AM

2

wh e n d o n e b y a n a g e n t w ho is i n v e st i g a t i n g a c r i m e , a n d

10:23:21AM

3

ta ki ng th at ac ti on du ri ng th e co ur se of th e in ve st ig at io n.

10:23:23AM

4

Law enf orc eme nt has to doc ume nt chi ld por nog rap hy, rec eiv e

10:23:26AM

5

it , do wn lo ad it, pos se ss it.

10:23:30AM

6

th os e fe de ra l st at ut es , if do ne -- al l of th os e ac ti on s if

10:23:34AM

7

do ne by a pr iv at e in di vi du al wo ul d be a vi ol at io n of la w.

10:23:37AM

8

Bu t th at is no t th e ca se wh er e do ne un de r co lo r of la w by

10:23:40AM

9

a la w en fo rc em en t ag en t du ri ng th e co ur se of an

10:23:43AM

10

in ve st ig at io n in or de r to in ve st ig at e an d to id en ti fy

10:23:48AM

11

pa r t i c u l a r cr i m i n a l s .

10:23:53AM

12

Honor.

10:23:54AM

13

10:24:00AM

14

of al lu de d to -- wi th ou t re al ly pu tt in g an y pa rt ic ul ar

10:24:03AM

15

fa ct s in th e re co rd , al lu de d to ot he r ac ti on s sh or t of

10:24:07AM

16

ru nn in g th e we bs it e th at la w en fo rc em en t co ul d ha ve ta ke n.

10:24:10AM

17

10:24:13AM

18

th at , yo ur Ho no r.

10:24:16AM

19

if th e go ve rn me nt ha d ju st ma de al l of th e ch il d

10:24:19AM

20

po r n o g r a p h y o n t h e w e b s i t e i n a c c e ss i b l e , i t c o ul d h a v e

10:24:22AM

21

th en go ne on wi th th e en fo rc em en t th er e.

10:24:25AM

22

se ns e pr in ci pl e, yo ur Ho no r, sa ys wh er e us er s fo r mo nt hs

10:24:29AM

23

up on mo nt hs ha ve be en ab le to fr ee ly ac ce ss an d di st ri bu te

10:24:33AM

24

ch il d po rn og ra ph y th ro ug h th e si te , an d th en one da y th at

10:24:35AM

25

si te ha s all of a su dd en co mp le te ly di ff er en t

An d al l of tho se act io ns and

I di d w a n t t o m a k e t ha t p o in t , y o u r

On th e ne ce ss it y pr in ci pl e, an d th e de fe ns e ha s so rt

A nd t h e r e i s a c o m m on -s e n s e p r i n c i p l e h e r e r e g a r d i n g An d so th e de fe ns e su gg es ts , yo u kn ow ,

We ll , a co mm on


37

10:24:38AM

1

fu nc ti on al it y an d no lo ng er pr es en ts an y ab il it y to ac ce ss

10:24:41AM

2

th os e so rt s of ma te ri al s, we ll , th at wo ul d be a tip -o ff ,

10:24:44AM

3

an d a ti p- of f to la w en fo rc em en t in fi lt ra ti on .

10:24:49AM

4

do n 't bel ie ve it is a re as o na bl e --

10:24:51AM

5

com mon -sen se pri nci ple , it is cer tai nly und ers tan dab le

10:24:53AM

6

th at th e fu nc ti on al it y of a si te li ke th is wo ul d ne ed to

10:24:56AM

7

re ma in in ta ct in or de r to gi ve la w en fo rc em en t th e

10:25:00AM

8

op po rt un it y to id en ti fy the pe rp et ra to rs , wh o wo ul d be

10:25:02AM

9

li ke ly sc ar ed aw ay or wo ul d st op us in g th e fa ci li ty if it

10:25:07AM

10

10:25:11AM

11

10:25:14AM

12

op er at in g in a si mi la r ma nn er , an d in th e ma nn er in wh ic h

10:25:19AM

13

it ha d be en op er at in g fo r mo nt hs an d mo nt hs an d mo nt hs , in

10:25:23AM

14

or de r to gi ve la w en fo rc em en t the op po rt un it y to ta ke th e

10:25:25AM

15

cou rt- aut hor ize d act ion s to act ual ly ide nti fy the

10:25:28AM

16

en d- us er s wh o we re in vo lv ed in th e cr im es th at we re be in g

10:25:32AM

17

investigated.

10:25:33AM

18

10:25:40AM

19

by the defendant.

10:25:48AM

20

w a s no t -- wa s n o t a w a r e, or m ig h t n o t h a v e b e e n a w a r e,

10:25:51AM

21

th at la w en fo rc em en t in pr io r ca se s ha s in fa ct ta ke n

10:25:54AM

22

th es e so rt s of ac ti on s on we bs it es -- on ch il d po rn og ra ph y

10:25:58AM

23

w e bs i t e s a n d o n t h e T o r n e t w o r k .

10:26:01AM

24

is in fa ct a ma tt er of pu bl ic re co rd th at la w en fo rc em en t

10:26:04AM

25

ha s in th e pa st se iz ed ch il d po rn og ra ph y we bs it es, al lo we d

An d so I

Ju st fr om a

tu rn ed in to so me th in g th at it wa sn 't be fo re . Th at 's th e he ar t of th e re as on wh y it ne ed ed to re ma in

Ju st a co up le of po in ts in te rm s of sp ec if ic ar gu me nt s T h e r e wa s a s t a t e m e n t t h a t th e d e f e ns e

And it is correct -- it


38

10:26:08AM

1

th em to co nt in ue to op er at e in a go ve rn me nt fa ci li ty ,

10:26:12AM

2

go tt en cou rt au th or it y to de pl oy a ne tw or k in ve st ig at iv e

10:26:16AM

3

te ch ni qu e, an d go tt en co ur t au th or it y to co nd uc t Ti tl e II I

10:26:20AM

4

mo n i t o r i n g .

10:26:21AM

5

10:26:23AM

6

am not su re of th e so ur ce o f th e co nf us io n.

10:26:25AM

7

def ens e act ual ly att ach ed a war ran t aut hor izi ng jus t tha t

10:26:28AM

8

fr om th e Ne br as ka ca se th at bo th pa rt ie s ha ve ci te d a

10:26:32AM

9

nu mb er of ti me s.

10:26:35AM

10

inv est iga tiv e tec hni que inv olv ing a web sit e tak eov er,

10:26:38AM

11

di sc lo se d to th e co ur t th at la w en fo rc em en t wa s go in g to

10:26:41AM

12

op er at e th at si te in or de r to co nd uc t th e mo ni to ri ng an d

10:26:44AM

13

de pl oy th e N IT .

10:26:47AM

14

from.

10:26:49AM

15

10:26:52AM

16

ta ke n ac ti on s li ke th is in th e pa st .

10:26:55AM

17

wi t h c ou r t ap p r o v a l .

10:26:59AM

18

in ve st ig at iv e te ch ni qu e, co ur t ap pr ov al to co nd uc t T II I

10:27:02AM

19

mo n i t o r i n g to m o n i t o r u s e r s' c o mm u n i c a t i o ns .

10:27:06AM

20

10:27:11AM

21

re po rt ed .

10:27:13AM

22

reg ard ing tho se inv est iga tio ns and a num ber of ind ivi dua ls

10:27:17AM

23

co nv ic te d in th e Di st ri ct of Ne br as ka re ga rd in g th os e

10:27:20AM

24

ca se s.

10:27:25AM

25

th e de fe ns e ha s ci te d to a nu mb er of ti me s th ro ug h th e

Th e de fe ns e ha s be en aw ar e o f th is fo r so me ti me .

I

Bu t t he

An d th at wa rr an t au th or iz ed a ne tw or k

I am no t su re wh er e th e co nf us io n co me s

Bu t it is ce rt ai nl y th e ca se th at la w en fo rc em en t ha s An d, ag ai n , do ne it

C o u r t ap p r o v a l t o d e p lo y t h e

A nd t h o s e c a s e s - - t h e O m a h a c a s e s h a v e b e e n p ub l i c l y Th er e ha ve be en tr ia ls th at ar e he ld in pu bl ic

Ag ai n, a ma tt er of pu bl ic re co rd .

An d on e th at


39

co ur se of ou r va ri ou s pl ea di ng s in th is ca se .

10:27:28AM

1

10:27:30AM

2

10:27:48AM

3

di sm is s, yo ur Ho no r, I am no t su re ex ac tl y ho w th at re al ly

10:27:53AM

4

co me s in to pl ay , ot he r th an to sa y th at ce rt ai nl y th e

10:27:57AM

5

ma g i s t r a t e wh o i s s u e d t he N IT w a r r a n t f o u n d p r o b ab l e

10:28:02AM

6

ca us e.

10:28:05AM

7

fo un d ca us e to is su e th at an d to al lo w th at te ch ni qu e.

10:28:11AM

8

10:28:14AM

9

10:28:17AM

10

to da y, in th e Ea st er n Di st ri ct of Wi sc on si n, a re po rt an d

10:28:21AM

11

re co mm en da ti on by a ma gi st ra te ju dg e re ga rd in g a mo ti on to

10:28:24AM

12

su pp re ss in vo lv in g th e NI T wa rr an t in th is ca se , in wh ic h

10:28:28AM

13

tha t mag ist rat e jud ge, rev iew ing a pro bab le cau se

10:28:31AM

14

ch al le ng e to th is NI T wa rr an t, fo un d th at th e wa rr an t

10:28:34AM

15

su ff ic ie nt ly es ta bl is he d pr ob ab le ca us e.

10:28:38AM

16

a co py to co un se l an d to t he co ur t as so on as th at be co me s

10:28:40AM

17

av ai la bl e on th e do ck et .

10:28:43AM

18

10:28:46AM

19

th e co nc lu si on th at it di d ar ti cu la te pr ob ab le ca us e to

10:28:49AM

20

dep loy the tec hni que , suf fic ien tly est abl ish ed pro bab le

10:28:53AM

21

ca us e.

10:28:57AM

22

th at su pp re ss io n wa s un wa rr an te d in th e ca se ba se d on th e

10:29:01AM

23

go ve rn me nt 's co nd uc t, wh ic h it fo un d to be re as on ab le .

10:29:04AM

24

wi l l p r e s e nt t h a t t o t h e c o u r t, ag a i n , o n c e it is

10:29:07AM

25

available.

As to t h e i n t e r p l a y o f p r o b a b l e c a u s e t o th e m ot i o n t o

Th e di st ri ct ju dg e wh o is su ed th e wi re ta p wa rr an t

A nd I c a n t e l l y o u r H o n o r, an d I h a v e d i sc l o s e d th i s to th e de fe ns e, th er e is an d wi ll be is su ed , I be li ev e

We wi ll pr ov id e

Bu t th at co ur t re vi ew in g th is sa me NI T wa rr an t ca me to

It als o fo un d, wit h re sp ec t to a Ru le 41 ar gu me nt ,


We

40

To th e ex te nt we ar e ta lk in g ab ou t pr ob ab le ca us e an d

10:29:07AM

1

10:29:11AM

2

fi nd in gs of pr ob ab le ca us e ba se d on wh at is ar ti cu la te d in

10:29:14AM

3

th e NI T wa rr an t he re , th at is su ch a fi nd in g by an ot he r

10:29:16AM

4

ma g i s t r a t e , i n a d d i t i o n t o , o f c o u r s e , t h e i s s u i ng

10:29:19AM

5

ma g i s t r a t e wh o f o u n d s o h e r e .

10:29:24AM

6

10:29:35AM

7

th e ar gu me nt , we wi ll be ad dr es si ng th e pa rt ic ul ar

10:29:39AM

8

sup pre ssi on iss ues sep ara tel y --

10:29:41AM

9

10:29:43AM

10

10:29:52AM

11

cou rt' s ind ulg enc e to jus t con sul t bri efl y wit h col lea gue s

10:29:55AM

12

before I conclude?

10:29:56AM

13

TH E CO UR T:

10:30:00AM

14

th is he ar in g up fo r br ie f ar gu me nt on th e mo ti on to

10:30:03AM

15

di sm is s.

10:30:06AM

16

on th is mo ti on ye t.

10:30:11AM

17

10:30:13AM

18

10:30:13AM

19

10:30:16AM

20

g uy s ha ve to be ar in m in d I r ea d yo ur br ie fs , y ou kno w .

10:30:20AM

21

h av e re ad th em tw ic e.

10:30:24AM

22

you r bri efs .

10:30:24AM

23

10:30:27AM

24

10:30:30AM

25

S o I ga th er , y ou r Ho no r, ju st in te rm s o f th e re st of

TH E CO UR T:

It is a di ff er en t i ss ue .

R. B E C K ER :

V e r y we l l .

If I co u l d ha v e th e

Yo u kn ow , I as k ed i n m y or de r se tt in g

I ha ve n' t he ar d an yt hi ng br ie f fr om ei th er si de

R. B EC KE R :

Ve ry w el l .

I wil l co nc lu de , yo ur

Honor. T H E CO U R T:

I h a v e h e a r d wh a t y o u h a v e s a i d .

Yo u I

Yo u do n 't ha ve to re pe at wh at 's in

r. Fi em an , do yo u ha ve an y re sp on se ? R. FI EM AN : Honor.

No t wi th ou t re pe at in g my se lf , yo ur

O n e br i e f po i n t .

T w o br i e f po i n t s .

On e is th i s,


41

10:30:34AM

1

y ou r Ho no r:

Yo u ca n se ar ch in vai n ev er y on e of th os e

10:30:38AM

2

Ne b r a s k a w a r r a n t s , t h e N I T w a r r a n t , a n y o f t he w a r r a n ts ,

10:30:41AM

3

an d yo u wi ll no t fi nd a si ng le re fe re nc e to th e go ve rn me nt

10:30:44AM

4

co nt in ui ng to di st ri bu te po rn og ra ph y as pa rt of th ei r

10:30:47AM

5

investigation.

10:30:48AM

6

10:30:51AM

7

gov ern men t can tak e ove r web sit es and col lec t ide nti fyi ng

10:30:54AM

8

da ta in tha t pr oc es s.

10:30:57AM

9

Ju dg e Bu ch an an to do , to co ll ec t th e IP ad dr es s at lo g- in .

10:31:03AM

10

No w h e r e in an y o f t h e s e c a s e s h a v e t h e y d i s c lo s e d in th e i r

10:31:06AM

11

wa r r a n t s t h a t t h e y i n t en d e d t o c o n t i n u e t o a c t i v e l y

10:31:08AM

12

di st ri bu te ch il d po rn og ra ph y.

10:31:11AM

13

it is ap pa ll in g, be ca us e th er e is in fa ct no in ve st ig at or y

10:31:14AM

14

ne ed .

10:31:18AM

15

si te an d th e ex tr a st ep of al lo wi ng pe op le to po st an d

10:31:22AM

16

distribute.

10:31:23AM

17

Th e ot he r ve ry br ie f th in g I wo ul d sa y, yo ur Ho no r,

10:31:29AM

18

th at re al ly go es to th e cr ux of bo th th e PC an d ou tr ag eo us

10:31:34AM

19

co nd uc t, be ca us e if th e go ve rn me nt is al le gi ng th at th ey

10:31:37AM

20

ha ve pr ob ab le ca us e to co ll ec t th e IP ad dr es s at lo g-i n,

10:31:41AM

21

th ey ha ve ac co mp li sh ed th ei r in ve st ig at or y go al .

10:31:45AM

22

is a se pa ra te is su e wh et he r PC is in fa ct es ta bl is he d, an d

10:31:48AM

23

w e w i l l f u r th e r a d d r e s s t h a t d u ri n g t h e c o u rs e of t he

10:31:50AM

24

lat er arg ume nts , you r Hon or.

10:31:52AM

25

I t h as be en ro ut in e --

A nd we do no t di sp ut e th at th e

In fac t, tha t' s wh at the y as ke d

Th at is a re ve la ti on , an d

It is a fa ls e ch oi ce be tw ee n sh ut te ri ng do wn thi s

TH E CO UR T:

No w it

Th is is a mo ti on to di sm is s ba se d on


42

10:31:56AM

1

ou tr ag eo us go ve rn me nt co nd uc t, as mo ve d in Do ck et 50 by

10:32:07AM

2

th e de fe ns e.

10:32:11AM

3

th e go ve rn me nt di d th e ri gh t th in g or wh et he r th e

10:32:19AM

4

go ve rn me nt ma de er ro rs , or wh et he r th e sh ow in g wa s

10:32:24AM

5

suf fic ien t on the war ran ts, or whe the r evi den ce col lec ted

10:32:28AM

6

on the

10:32:32AM

7

qu es ti on of wh et he r th e go ve rn me nt 's co nd uc t in th is wh ol e

10:32:36AM

8

pr o c e s s is so g r o s s l y s h o c k i n g a n d s o o u t r a g e o u s a s t o

10:32:41AM

9

vi ol at e th e un iv er sa l se ns e of ju st ic e, an d of fe nd ca no ns

10:32:51AM

10

of dece nc y an d fa ir ne ss , vi ol at e no ti on s of just ic e.

10:32:58AM

11

m o t i o n h a s no t r e a c h ed t h a t st a n d a r d t h a t t h e d e f en s e

10:33:07AM

12

w o u l d h a v e to s h o w .

10:33:09AM

13

10:33:15AM

14

go ve rn me nt di d, fr om wh at I ha ve re ad he re , se iz e an d

10:33:23AM

15

co nt ro l a we bs it e th at co nt ai ne d ch il d po rn og ra ph y, an d

10:33:25AM

16

ke pt it al iv e.

10:33:33AM

17

co nt ro l, as th e st at ut e re qu ir es th at th ey ha nd le ev id en ce

10:33:37AM

18

of chi ld po rn og ra ph y.

10:33:41AM

19

b u t i t i s a r g u a b l e , a n d a r e a s o n ab l e p o s i t i o n t o ta k e ,

10:33:46AM

20

th at th ey co nt ro ll ed th at si te co ns is te nt wi th th at

10:33:49AM

21

statute.

10:33:53AM

22

10:34:06AM

23

su pp re ss .

10:34:16AM

24

se iz in g of ev id en ce , th e ev id en ce sh ow s th at th ey we re

10:34:24AM

25

tr yi ng to ca tc h th e ba d gu ys , so to sp ea k, th at th ey we re

Th is do es no t re qu ir e an an al ys is of wh et he r

ba si s of th e wa rr an t s ho ul d be su pp re ss ed .

I ju st ha ve a co u pl e o f c om me nt s ab ou t i t.

It is a

Th is

Fi rs t, th e

Ar gu ab ly th at wa s un de r th e go ve rn me nt 's

I me an , yo u ca n ar gu e ab ou t th at ,

We w il l i n v e s t i g a t e fu r t h e r t o d a y t h e m ot i o n to Bu t in th e go ve rn me nt 's se ek in g of wa rr an ts an d


43

10:34:30AM

1

do in g th ei r wo rk as la w en fo rc em en t ag en ts .

Wh et he r th ey

10:34:34AM

2

di d it rig ht is a di ff er en t th in g .

10:34:38AM

3

so wr on g as to be gr os sl y sh oc ki ng or ou tr ag eo us to

10:34:44AM

4

vi ol at e th e un iv er sa l se ns e of ju st ic e.

10:34:48AM

5

10:34:54AM

6

ki nd s of ca se s, th at th e ot he r si de 's po si ti on is

10:34:57AM

7

ou tr ag eo us .

10:35:08AM

8

th e st an dp oi nt of on e wh o st an ds be tw ee n th e de fe nda nt an d

10:35:11AM

9

th e go ve rn me nt , an d re pr es en ts ne it he r si de , you lo ok at

10:35:18AM

10

wh a t h a pp e n e d a n d l o ok in w a rd .

10:35:26AM

11

I di d no t fi nd it ou tr ag eo us .

10:35:32AM

12

10:35:35AM

13

an en ti re ly di ff er en t is su e, bu t th er e is no ba si s to

10:35:43AM

14

di sm is s th e in di ct me nt ba se d on ou tr ag eo us co nd uc t.

10:35:46AM

15

m o t i o n m a d e i n D o c k e t 5 0 i s de n i e d .

10:35:57AM

16

10:36:13AM

17

he ar in g, if ne ce ss ar y, an d ar gu me nt on th e mo ti on s to

10:36:17AM

18

su pp re ss .

10:36:23AM

19

do cu me nt s, Do ck et s 26 , 50 , and 65 .

10:36:36AM

20

10:36:39AM

21

is su e.

10:36:44AM

22

sh ow in g, an d wo ul d as k yo u fo r a br ie f, br ie f, li ke fi ve

10:36:52AM

23

mi n u t e s , o p e n i n g s t a t e m e n t .

10:37:04AM

24

am mi nd fu l of th e is su es th at I an ti ci pa te yo u wi ll be

10:37:08AM

25

ge ne ra ll y ad dr es si ng .

Bu t th ey di dn 't do it

I t i s ea sy to ar gu e , an d, my go sh , we he ar it in al l

We ll , yo u kn ow , th at 's a hi gh st an da rd .

Fr om

I am not shocked by this.

W h e th e r t h e r e a re g r o u n d s t o s u p p r e s s e v i d e n c e h e r e i s

Th at

I gu es s th e ne xt is su e to ad dr es s is th e ev id en ti ar y

Th os e mo ti on s ar e ma de in th re e se pa ra te

Th e go ve rn me nt ha s th e bu rd en of go in g fo rw ar d on th is I gu es s I wo ul d li ke t o kn o w wh at yo u an ti ci pa te

Y ou c a n b e a r i n m i n d t h a t I

I am mor e cu ri ou s as to ho w yo u


44

pr o p o s e to p ro c e e d a n d w h a t yo u p r op o s e t o s h o w .

10:37:12AM

1

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2

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th at we ar e in a sc en ar io wh er e th e co ur t ha s de ni ed th e

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re qu es t fo r a Fr an ks he ar in g, and th e de fe ns e, I be li ev e,

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5

is ta kin g th e po si ti on th at th e is su es re la te d to

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6

su pp re ss io n ca n be de ci de d ba se d up on th e pa pe r re cor d.

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7

So I th in k th at wo ul d be ou r in te nt in pr oc ee di ng .

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8

N ow , t h i s i s a b i t o f a sh i f t i n t h e f o o t i n g .

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9

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p o i n t I t hi n k w e w o u ld i n t e nd t o p r o c e e d o n t h e p a p e r

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re co rd .

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ag re e ca n be en te re d as a pa rt of th e pr oc ee di ng

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13

pe r t a i n i n g to w a r r a n t d o cu m e n t s an d t h e l i k e , an d p e r h ap s

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s om e ot he rs th at I th in k we ag re e d on th at ca n b e pu t in to

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the rec ord .

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m a y b e c o u n s e l c a n a n s w e r t h em , a b o u t h o w t h i s w or k e d .

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am not ask in g fo r an evi de nt ia ry sho wi ng .

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to ha ve th e op po rt un it y to ma ke wh at ev er sh ow in g yo u fe el

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is nec ess ary .

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th in k we in te nd to st an d on th e pa pe r re co rd an d ar gu e

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fro m the doc ume nts .

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24

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R. B EC KE R:

Un de rs to od , yo ur H on or .

It a pp ea rs

We

ce rt ai nl y ar e av ai la bl e to pr es en t te st im on y, bu t at th is

Th er e ar e ex hi bi ts th at I th in k bo th pa rt ie s wi ll

TH E CO UR T:

R. BEC KE R:

TH E C OU RT : R. FIE MA N:

I ha ve so me qu es ti on s fo r so me bo dy , I

I ju st wa nt you

In ter ms of th e su pp re ss io n is su es , I

Ok ay . Un le ss the re are

qu es ti on s th at I


45

10:38:41AM

1

ca n' t an sw er an d ou r ex pe rt ca n, yo ur Ho no r, I wo ul d as k

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2

th e co ur t to pr oc ee d on the

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3

th e co ur t if th er e is so me th in g be yo nd th at sc op e.

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4

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5

to an yt hi ng el se .

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6

or de r se tt in g up th is he ar in g.

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7

th e au th or it y to at ta ch th is NI T to th e we bs it e, ho w do

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8

yo u do tha t?

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9

ma k e k e y s t ro k e s t o m a k e t h a t h a pp e n ?

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10

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11

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ca pa bl e of sa yi ng th is in la ym an te rm s, bu t I do no t wa nt

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14

hi m to sta te th e pr oc es s.

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15

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th en on ce it is at ta ch ed to th e we bs it e, an d it go es

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ou t -- as I un de rs ta nd i t, th en i t go es ou t t o us e rs o f

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th e we bs it e wh o ha ve to si gn i n.

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it pi ck up wh at ev er in fo rm at io n it is go in g to pi ck up

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au to ma ti ca ll y, or wh en th ey en te r in to th at we bs it e ar e

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th ey di re ct ed to en te r so me ot he r in fo rm at io n by th is NI T,

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22

or do es it ha pp en au to ma ti ca ll y wi th ou t an y ad di ti on al

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23

entries?

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24

10:40:59AM

25

TH E CO UR T:

pa pe r re co rd .

I wi ll al er t

Le t me as k th es e qu es ti on s pr el im in ar y No t th e qu es ti on s th at I ra is e d in my Wh en th e go ve rn me nt go t

Do es so me bo dy s it do w n on a co mp u te r an d

R. FIE MA N :

H o w i s t h a t d o n e?

Yo ur Hon o r, I ca n te ll you , ba se d on

th at qu es ti on al on e, we wi ll ne ed te st im on y fr om r. Sog ho ia n on the par t of th e de f en se .

TH E CO UR T:

R. FI EM AN :

He is qu it e

An yw ay , I am cu ri ou s a bo ut th at .

Wh en the y si gn in , do e s

I ca n gi ve you a

al l th re e , yo ur Ho no r.

An d

b ri ef re sp on s e t o

Th e fi rs t qu es ti on is h ow i s t he


46

10:41:14AM

1

N I T p ro g r a m m e d .

T h a t i s p a rt o f w h a t w e d o n 't k n o w.

But

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2

ty pi ca ll y in NI T ca se s, wh at i t i s is a se t o f co de

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3

co mp on en ts th at wo rk in co nj un ct io n to do re al ly a ve ry

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4

si mp le thi ng .

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5

hom epa ge, tha t act ivi ty tri gge rs -- eit her aut oma tic all y

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6

or by an ag en t mo ni to ri ng th e lo g- in , we do no t kn ow ye t,

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7

b u t, r e g a r dl e s s , a t t h e p o i n t o f s i g n - i n t h i s c o d e i s s e n t

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8

fr om th e Vi rg in ia se rv er to th e ta rg et co mp ut er , in th is

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9

c a s e al l e g e d l y

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10

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11

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might impede it --

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13

T H E CO U R T:

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14

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15

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16

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18

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yo u l og in to an yt hi ng , li ke em ai l .

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24

hu nd re d th ou sa nd pe op le wh o ar e lo gg in g in .

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25

th ey ar e ty pi ng in th ei r lo g- in at th at ho me pa ge , th e NI T

Wh en a us er sig ns -- is si gn ed in to the

r.

i c h a u d ' s.

A n d th a t is w h a t it i s, i t

is co de , it is da ta . Th at co de br ea ks th ro ug h an y se cu ri ty ba rr ie rs th at

r.

Y o u kn o w , I k n o w th a t.

W h a t do e s

ichaud d o? R. FI EM AN :

Wh at he i s al le ge d to ha ve do ne is

si gn ed in to th e we bs it e. TH E CO UR T:

As al wa ys , or pe r u su al , or do es he

ha ve to en te r in so me ot he r in fo rm at io n? R. F I E M AN : T H E C O U R T:

No. D o e s i t t e l l hi m , t o g e t i n , y o u h a v e

to do on e, tw o, th re e? R. FIE MA N :

Th e ho me pa ge ha s li k e a us er nam e , a s So th er e ar e a bo ut a At th e mo me nt


47

10:42:36AM

1

is se nt to th e ta rg et co mp ut er an d be gi ns ex tr ac ti ng da ta

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2

her e in Was hin gto n.

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3

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4

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to lo ok at th e NI T in fo rm at io n ot he r th an go in g to th e

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server?

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wh a t is c o nf u s i n g t o m e .

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20

th e se ar ch o cc ur re d.

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21

yo u ne ed to ca ll a wi tn es s on th es e th in gs .

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22

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23

ter ms of exp lai nin g the net wor k inv est iga tiv e tec hni que .

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24

I d o th in k w e ne ed to be cl ea r on th e re co rd th e f oo ti ng

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25

an d ho w, if at al l, th es e qu es ti on s pl ay in to th e co ur t

TH E CO UR T:

Wi th ou t an y ad di ti on al ac ti on on th e

pa r t of t he u s e r ? R. FI EM AN :

No ne wh at so ev er .

Di d I ad dr e ss yo ur

qu es ti on s so fa r? T H E CO U R T:

R. FI EM AN :

Yes.

D o t h e FB I ex p e r t s h a v e a n y wa y

Yo ur Ho no r, th ey do n' t go to th e

server. T H E CO U R T:

W h e r e do th e y go ?

H o w do th e y ge t th e

information? R . F IEMA N:

They g et i t f rom

r.

ichaud's

computer. TH E CO UR T: R. FI EM AN : TH E CO UR T:

R. BEC KE R:

Th ey don 't hav e hi s co mp ut er . Th at 's wh at th e NI T i s fo r. Hi s in fo rm a ti on - -

Yo u se e, t hi s is

It h as a l o t t o d o w i t h w he r e

Ho w do th ey f in d in fo rm a ti on ?

ay be

Ou r la wy er arg um en t is one thi ng , in


48

10:44:21AM

1

aut hor iza tio n and the par tic ula r -- any par tic ula r

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2

ch al le ng es to it , so th at , I gu es s, we kn ow -- ac tu al ly ,

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3

th e go ve rn me nt kn ow s wh at fo ot in g we ar e on so we ca n

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4

el ec t to pr es en t te st im on y and wh at th at is pe rt in en t to.

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5

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6

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Honor.

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11

to Pa ra gr ap h 33 on Pa ge 24 of th e NI T wa rr an t.

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R. B EC KE R :

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a de sc ri pt io n of how

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th at is , "In th e no rm al cou rs e of op er at io n we bs it es se nt

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24

con ten t to vis ito rs. "

10:46:29AM

25

Ce rt ai nl y th e wa rr an t it se lf an d th e af fid av it do es gi ve an ex pl an at io n of ho w th e NI T wi ll wo rk an d op er at e. TH E CO UR T:

It do es n' t ex pl ai n th e th in gs I am

ask ing abou t. R. BEC KE R:

So me of th em are add re ss ed , yo ur

If I could just have --

TH E CO UR T:

Your Honor, I would point

Th at is th e Ru le 41 ap pl ic at io n?

R. B E C K ER :

C o r r e c t.

T h i s is Ex h i b i t 1 t o

Gov ern men t Doc ket No. 47. TH E CO UR T:

Pa ge an d li ne ag ai n .

R. BE CK ER : TH E CO UR T:

Pa ge 24 , Par ag ra ph 33 . 24 at th e to p , th e do ck et pa ge s , o r 2 4

at the bo tt om ? R. BE CK ER : TH E COU RT :

T H E CO U R T:

So rr y.

2 4 a t th e bot to m, yo ur Ho no r .

Pa ra gr ap h 33. Ye s, y ou r Ho no r . th e pr oc es s of the

Just a minute.

An d th at d o es gi ve NI T op er at es .

L et m e re a d it .


An d

49

R. BE CK ER :

Ye s, yo ur Ho no r .

10:46:32AM

1

10:47:01AM

2

10:47:03AM

3

I do n' t un de rs ta nd fu ll y.

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4

Un de r the NI T au th or iz at io n th e we bs it e wo ul d au gm en t th at

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5

co nt en t wi th ad di ti on al co mp ut er in st ru ct io ns .

10:47:27AM

6

use r's com put er suc ces sfu lly dow nlo ads tho se ins tru cti ons

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7

it ca use s th e co mp ut er -- th e ac ti va ti ng co mp ut er to

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8

tr an sm it ce rt ai n in fo rm at io n.

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ha s to do wn lo ad so me in st ru ct io ns in ad di ti on to ju st

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th e go ve rn me nt to de pl oy th e NI T to an y us er wh o di d lo g

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13

i nt o th e we bs it e wi th a us er na me an d a pa ss wo rd .

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14

the aut hor iza tio n per mit ted the gov ern men t to dep loy the

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N I T t o a n y u se r w h o w e n t t h at f a r.

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wo r d "a u g m e n t " r e f e r en c e s , i s t h a t i n a d d i t i on to t he

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instr uction s --

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TH E CO UR T:

Yo u se e, th at is the

k in d of pa ra gr ap h

An d I am tr yi ng to un de rs ta nd .

Wh en a

Th at so un ds li ke the user

sig nin g int o the web sit e. R. BE CK ER :

THE COURT:

Th e wa rr an t sp ec if ic al ly au th or iz ed

I know that .

An d so

I am trying to find out

ho w th is wo rk s. R. BE CK ER : T H E CO U R T:

Un de rs to od. S o w h a t d o e s th e us e r d o ?

A r e th er e

ne w in st ru ct io ns wh en he si gn s in to th e we bs it e? R. B EC KE R :

TH E CO UR T: R. BE CK ER :

Ye s, y ou r Ho no r .

Th at 's w ha t th e

Wh at do th e in st ru ct io ns say ? Th e us e o f th e wo rd " au gm en t" mea ns


50

10:48:37AM

1

tha t the se are add iti ona l ins tru cti ons bey ond the nor mal

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2

in st ru ct io ns tha t wo ul d be on th e we bs it e.

10:48:45AM

3

Tha t is art icu lat ed.

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4

10:48:50AM

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ar e, wh at th e co de is , is no t ar ti cu la te d in th e wa rr an t,

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6

t ha t i s co rr ec t.

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7

ar ti cu la te d in th e wa rr an t is th at th er e ar e co mp ut er

10:48:59AM

8

in st ru ct io ns th at ar e se nt to the us er 's co mp ut er, the

10:49:03AM

9

ac ti va ti ng co mp ut er , an d th at ca us es , as ar ti cu la te d in

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10

th e wa rr an t, th e ac ti va ti ng co mp ut er to se nd the sp ec if ie d

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infor mation --

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12

10:49:13AM

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in st ru ct io ns th at he ha s to en te r mo re th in gs in

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co mp li an ce wi th th os e in st ru ct io ns ?

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w r o n g g u y s h er e .

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20

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ma k e a r gu m e n t f r o m t h e w a r r a n t i t s e l f .

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im po rt an t .

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24

10:49:47AM

25

We do th in k --

The spe cif ic ins tru cti ons -- wha t the ins tru cti ons

Th e com pu te r co de is no t.

TH E CO UR T:

Wh at is

Le t' s ta lk ab ou t wh at th e us er do es .

He si gn s in to th e we bs it e? R. BE CK ER : TH E CO UR T:

R. FIE MA N: Honor.

Ye s. No w, do es th e w eb si te se nd hi m th es e

I ca n' t an sw er thi s qu es ti on , yo ur

I t i s j u s t t h a t I d o n' t t h i n k R. BE CK ER :

I am ta lk in g to th e

r . B e c k e r w a n t s to .

Yo ur Ho no r, at th is po in t I wa nt to I d o t h i n k t h a t is

An d I do be li ev e - -

TH E CO UR T: w a r r an t y et .

We ar e no t to ar g um en t fr om th e

W e a r e s t i l l a t t h e p o i n t o f t r yi n g to f i nd


51

10:49:50AM

1

ou t wh at ha pp en ed .

I wa nt to kn ow wh at ha pp en ed , ho w it

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2

works.

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3

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4

10:50:09AM

5

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wa n t to k n o w w h a t t h e u s e r h a s t o d o t o t r i g g e r t h i s NI T ,

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7

if an yt hi ng .

10:50:28AM

8

to fi nd ou t wh er e -- th e in fo rm at io n th at th e NI T

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9

pr o v i d e s , h o w d o e s h e g et t h a t?

10:50:37AM

10

so me bo dy si tt in g in a cu bi cl e so me wh er e wi th a ke yb oa rd

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11

doing this stuff.

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12

th e cl ou ds , an d th e cl ou ds ra in in fo rm at io n.

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13

know.

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br e a k i n g , a r e t h e r e o t h er q u e s ti o n s t h a t y o u r H o n o r h a s ?

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I ca n co nf er --

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in st ru ct io ns ar e co mp ut er s ta lk in g to ea ch ot he r, an d th at

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th e in fo rm at io n is se nt fr om th e us er 's co mp ut er ba ck

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25

wi t h o u t t he u s e r m a k i n g a n y ad d i t io n a l c o m p u t e r

R. BE CK ER :

Ca n I ha ve a qu ic k mo me nt to co nf er

wi t h c o u n s el ? THE COURT:

It is time we took a break anyway.

I

Th en I w an t t o kn ow wh at do es th e FB I gu y d o

I suppose there is

I d o n 't kn o w t h a t .

R. BE CK ER :

T H E C O U R T:

It may be they seed

Un de rs to od , yo ur Ho no r.

T h o s e a r e th e m a i n o n e s .

I do n' t

Wh il e we ar e

There may be

ot he rs th at co me to mi nd as we ar gu e th is ma tt er . R. BE CK ER : TH E CO UR T:

Th an k yo u, yo ur Ho no r. We wi ll re co nv en e sh or tl y af te r 11 :0 0.

(Break.) T H E CO U R T:

y st a f f sa y s th e y th i n k th e s e


52

ke ys tr ok es .

Ri gh t?

11:10:41AM

1

11:10:44AM

2

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3

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4

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wh e n

11:11:07AM

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t he y pu t th e NI T on he re , h e go es ho me fo r th e ni g ht , so me

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8

FB I a ge nt s s le ep , bu t no t mu ch , a nd he co me s in in th e

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mo r n i n g .

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10

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11

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as we ha ve ar ti cu la te d in ou r fi li ng in re sp on se to th e

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13

m o t i o n t o c o m p e l , t h e s i t e w a s m o n i t o r e d 2 4 h o ur s a d a y ,

11:11:34AM

14

se ve n da ys a we ek , wh il e it w as i n FB I co nt ro l.

11:11:36AM

15

no t a po in t wh er e th is si te wa s be in g op er at ed --

11:11:40AM

16

ad mi ni st er ed by th e FB I th at it wa s no t be in g mo ni to re d by

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th e FB I.

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Th at 's co rr ec t, yo ur Ho no r. Do yo u agr ee ?

R. FI EM AN :


TH E CO UR T:

y nex t que st io n th en is , wha t ha pp en s

r . F B I A g e n t w a n t s t o se e if a n y b o d y s i gn e d in ?

So

W h a t d o e s h e do to s ee i f t h e r e i s a n y

inf orm ati on on the re? R. BE CK ER :

TH E CO UR T: to th e re st ro om ?

Le t me fi rs t ar ti cu la te , yo ur Hon or ,

Th er e wa s

Yo u me an th ey do n' t ev en ge t up an d g o

Re ga rd le ss , wh at ha pp en s on th e FB I en d?

R. BE CK ER :

Th e in fo rm at io n th at is re tu rn ed by

th e NI T is de li ve re d to an FB I co mp ut er . TH E CO UR T:

An d ho w do es th e FB I a ge nt ge t th at

information? R. BEC KE R:

Th at inf or ma ti on is loa de d in to a

sy st em th at tu rn s it in to a re po rt , an d th en th os e re po rt s


53

11:12:16AM

1

ar e gen er at ed .

Th at re po rt --

11:12:20AM

2

in to ev id en ce Ex hi bi t 15 .

11:12:26AM

3

pa r t i c u l a r u se r a l l o f t h e a c t i o n s t h a t t h e u s e r to o k o n

11:12:29AM

4

the web sit e.

11:12:30AM

5

11:12:33AM

6

11:12:36AM

7

11:12:38AM

8

11:12:38AM

9

11:12:41AM

10

ma k e s o m e k e y s t r o k e s f o r t h is t o c o m e u p , o r o p e n h is

11:12:47AM

11

com put er, or som eth ing ?

11:12:52AM

12

11:12:55AM

13

st or ed on th e co mp ut er , ye s, yo u wo ul d ha ve to go on to

11:12:58AM

14

th at co mp ut er an d se e, ok ay , wh at in fo rm at io n wa s

11:13:00AM

15

re tu rn ed .

11:13:03AM

16

pr o v i d e d .

11:13:03AM

17

11:13:08AM

18

11:13:17AM

19

11:13:19AM

20

is on the go ve rn me nt 's co mp ut er in Vi rg in ia , the co mp ut er

11:13:22AM

21

to wh ic h th at in fo rm at io n is re tu rn ed .

11:13:24AM

22

11:13:29AM

23

th e us er 's co mp ut er an d lo ok in th er e, se e wh at el se he

11:13:33AM

24

can fin d?

11:13:39AM

25

TH E CO UR T:

Ac tu al ly , I ca n pro ff er

Th at re po rt co nt ai ns fo r a

Ho w do es th e FB I ag en t ge t th at

information? R. BEC KE R :

Fr om the FBI com

pu te r on whi ch it is

stored. T H E C O U R T:

R. BE CK ER :

S o h e h a s to si t at hi s c o m p u t e r a n d

In or de r to ac ce ss th e da ta th at is

An d th at is ge ne ra te d in to re po rt s th at we ha ve

TH E CO UR T:

Wh er e is tha t in fo rm at io n th at he or

sh e is no w lo ok in g? R. BE CK ER :

TH E CO UR T:

R. B E C K ER :

At th e ti me th e da ta is re tu rn ed it

Do es he ha ve an y ab il it y to go ba ck to

N o , yo u r Ho n o r.

W e ca n pu t on


54

11:13:44AM

1

te st im on y re ga rd in g th es e qu es ti on s.

11:13:52AM

2

cl ea r, th is wa s no t so me th in g th at sa t on th e us er 's

11:13:55AM

3

c om pu te r.

11:13:59AM

4

so me of the se que st io ns , yo ur Hon or .

11:14:01AM

5

pr o b a b l y t h e b e s t w a y f o r w ar d .

11:14:02AM

6

11:14:05AM

7

11:14:06AM

8

11:14:09AM

9

11:14:12AM

10

b e o b s t r e p e r o u s a t a l l , t h e r e m a y b e q u e s t i on s or a re a s

11:14:16AM

11

w h e r e i f i t i n v o l v e s a l e ve l of d et a i l a b o u t i n f o r m a t i o n

11:14:20AM

12

pe r t a i n i n g to t h e n e tw o r k --

11:14:22AM

13

11:14:24AM

14

me a n a n yt h i n g t o m e a n y w a y .

11:14:30AM

15

kn ow th at if yo u wa nt to se e so me th in g on yo ur co mp ut er ,

11:14:34AM

16

yo u ha ve to tu rn it on an d hi t th e ri gh t st ro ke s , o r el s e

11:14:39AM

17

yo u ar e ju st in th er e pl ay in g so li ta ir e or so me th in g.

11:14:46AM

18

do n' t ca re wh at the

11:14:51AM

19

I ju st wa nt to kn ow wh at 's av ai la bl e an d ho w th ey wo ul d do

11:14:55AM

20

it.

11:14:55AM

21

11:15:00AM

22 23

11:15:40AM

24

11:15:40AM

25

L et me --

T H E C O U R T:

As th e wa rr an t ma ke s

We c an pu t on tes ti mo ny to c la ri fy I th in k th at is

I f y o u w a n t t o, I w o u l d l i k e t o k n o w

ho w th is wo rk s. R. B EC KE R:

In de ed .

Un de rs to od , yo ur H on or .

Ju st fo r th e co ur t' s be ne fi t, an d I do n' t me an fo r us to

TH E CO UR T:

R. BE CK ER :

I don 't wa nt th e de ta il .

It wo ul dn 't

B ut I u n d e r s t a n d e no u g h to

st ro ke s ar e.

I

I do n' t ca re ab ou t th at .

At th is ti me we wou ld ca ll Sp ec ia l

A g e n t D a n A l f i n t o t h e s t an d . DAN IEL ALF IN Ha vi ng be en sw or n un de r oa th , te st if ie d as fo ll ow s: DIRECT EXAMIN ATION


55

11:15:42AM

1

By

r. Becker:

11:15:43AM

2

Q.

Pl ea se st at e an d sp el l yo ur fu ll na me fo r th e re co rd .

11:15:45AM

3

A.

11:15:54AM

4

Q.

Wh at do yo u do fo r a li vi ng ?

11:15:55AM

5

A.

I am a

11:15:59AM

6

ass ign ed to FBI hea dqu art ers, cri min al inv est iga tiv e

11:16:04AM

7

div isi on, vio len t cri mes aga ins t chi ldr en sec tio n, maj or

11:16:07AM

8

ca se co or di na ti on un it , lo ca te d in Li nt hi cu m,

11:16:12AM

9

Q.

An d ho w lo ng ha ve yo u be en wit h th e FB I?

11:16:15AM

10

A.

I ha ve be en em pl oy ed wi th th e FB I fo r ap pr ox im at el y

11:16:18AM

11

six yea rs.

11:16:18AM

12

Q.

11:16:24AM

13

cas e coo rdi nat ion uni t?

11:16:26AM

14

A.

11:16:30AM

15

inv est iga tio ns of onl ine chi ld exp loi tat ion off end ers tha t

11:16:34AM

16

typ ica lly hav e a nat ion wid e or int ern ati ona l nex us.

11:16:37AM

17

Q.

11:16:41AM

18

th e FB I?

11:16:42AM

19

A.

11:16:45AM

20

uni t sin ce app rox ima tel y Jul y 201 4.

11:16:49AM

21

Q.

11:16:52AM

22

within that unit?

11:16:53AM

23

A.

11:16:57AM

24

coo rdi nat ion uni t I rou tin ely con duc t inv est iga tio ns of

11:17:01AM

25

off end ers who uti liz e sop his tic ate d tec hno log y to

y na me is Da nie l Al fi n, D-A- N-I -E- L, A-L- F- I- N.

sp ec ia l ag en t wit h the FB I.

I am cur re nt ly

ar yl an d.

Wh at ar e th e re sp on si bi li ti es of yo ur un it , th e ma jo r

The major

cas e coo rdi nat ion unit

Fo r ho w lo ng ha ve you

con duc ts lar ge- sca le

be en in th at par ti cu la r un it of

I ha ve be en as si gn ed to th e ma jo r ca se coor di na ti on

Wh at so rt s of ro le s an d re sp on si bi li ti es do yo u ha ve

In my ro le as a sp e ci al age nt at t he m aj or cas e


56

11:17:06AM

1

obf usc ate or cov er up the ir chi ld exp loi tat ion act ivi tie s.

11:17:11AM

2

A s i g n if i c a n t a m o u n t o f m y t i m e at t h e m a j o r c a s e

11:17:14AM

3

coo rdi nat ion uni t has bee n ded ica ted to inv est iga tin g

11:17:17AM

4

ch il d sex of fe nd er s wh o ut il iz e th e To r ne tw or k to en ga ge

11:17:22AM

5

in the adv ert ise men t, dis tri but ion , and pro duc tio n of

11:17:25AM

6

child pornog raphy.

11:17:25AM

7

Q.

11:17:30AM

8

we b s i t e s o n t h e T o r n e t w o r k i n a n u n d e r c o v e r c a p a c i t y ?

11:17:34AM

9

A.

11:17:37AM

10

nu me ro us we bs it es th at ex is t an d ha ve ex is te d on th e To r

11:17:41AM

11

net wor k, who se pri mar y pur pos es wer e the adv ert ise men t and

11:17:45AM

12

dis tri but ion of chi ld por nog rap hy.

11:17:46AM

13

Q.

11:17:51AM

14

in ve st ig at io n of th e we bs it e th at is pe rt in en t to th is

11:17:55AM

15

ca se , th at we ha ve re fe rr ed to as We bs it e A?

11:17:58AM

16

A.

I di d.

11:17:58AM

17

Q.

Ca n you j us t g o ba c k and ju st de sc ri be --

11:18:04AM

18

yo u be co me aw ar e of We bs it e A, in it ia ll y?

11:18:06AM

19

A.

11:18:11AM

20

wh e n it c a m e o n l i n e .

11:18:16AM

21

We b s i t e A w e r e a d v e r ti s e d on m ul t i p l e w e b s i t es , w h o s e

11:18:20AM

22

pu r p o s e s w e r e t h e a d ve r t i s e m e n t of w e b s i t e s d e d i c at e d t o

11:18:25AM

23

the adv ert ise men t and dis tri but ion of chi ld por nog rap hy.

11:18:28AM

24

A ft e r I s a w t h e l i n k to W e bs i t e A c om e o n l in e , I

11:18:35AM

25

Ha ve yo u ac ce ss ed we bs it es -- ch il d po rn og ra ph y

I ha ve .

I ha ve acc es se d, do cu me nt ed , an d re vi ew ed

Sp ec ia l Ag en t Al fi n, di d yo u pa rt ic ip at e in th e

Ho w did

I be ca me aw ar e of We bs it e A ap pr ox im at el y Au gu st 20 14 A t t h at p o i n t i n t i m e l i nk s to

ac ce ss ed it an d ob se rv ed th at it wa s in fa ct a we bs it e


57

11:18:37AM

1

w h o s e p r i m a r y p u r p o s e w as t he a d v e r t i s e m en t a n d

11:18:40AM

2

di st ri bu ti on of ch il d po rn og ra ph y.

11:18:42AM

3

on mu lt ip le oc ca si on s be tw ee n Au gu st 20 14 an d

11:19:11AM

4

R. BE CK ER :

11:19:13AM

5

an evi de nc e bi nd er av ai la bl e.

11:19:16AM

6

e xh ib it s th at we wi ll pr es e nt .

11:19:18AM

7

co ur t ha s th at in fr on t of hi m.

11:19:28AM

8

By

r. Becker:

11:19:28AM

9

Q.

Sp ec ia l Ag en t Al fi n, I wo ul d dir ec t yo ur at te nt io n to

11:19:31AM

10

E xh ib it 12 A.

11:19:35AM

11

A. I d o .

11:19:36AM

12

11:19:50AM

13

Q. A.

11:19:55AM

14

co or di na ti on un it ac ce ss ed We bs it e A in an un de rc ov er

11:20:00AM

15

ca pa ci ty.

11:20:03AM

16

We b s i t e A a s i t a p p e a r e d d ur i n g t h at t i m e .

11:20:07AM

17

th os e sc re en ca pt ur es .

11:20:10AM

18

We b s i t e A p r i o r t o l o g g i n g i n t o th e w e b s i te .

11:20:16AM

19

11:20:17AM

20

in du lg en ce --

11:20:20AM

21

Ex hi bi t 12 A, an d th en to pu bl is h vi a th e co mp ut er a co py

11:20:24AM

22

of th at ex hi bi t.

11:20:26AM

23

11:20:27AM

24

11:20:41AM

25

I re vi ew ed th e we bs it e ar ch 20 15 .

Yo ur Ho no r, I be li e ve th e co ur t ha s Th er e ar e a co up le of I wa nt to ma ke su re the

Do yo u h av e th e bo ok in fr on t o f yo u?

Wh at doe s Ex hi bi t 12 A de pi ct ? In ea rl y Fe br ua ry 201 5 an FB I ag en t at th e ma jo r ca se

Th at ag en t to ok mult ip le sc re en ca pt ur es of

R. BEC KE R:

T h i s i s o n e of

An d it dep ic ts th e fr on t pa ge of

Yo ur Hon or , wi th the cou rt 's

We ll , fi rs t, I wo ul d mo ve to ad mi t

R. FIE MA N: T H E CO U R T:

No obj ec ti on , yo ur Hon or . All right.

It may be admitted.

(E xh ib it No . 12 A wa s ad mi tt ed .)


58

11:20:41AM

1

By

r. Becker:

11:20:42AM

2

Q.

Sp ec ia l Ag en t Al fi n, ca n yo u se e 12 A on yo ur sc re en ?

11:20:50AM

3

A.

I ca n.

11:20:50AM

4

Q.

Ho w wo ul d th e us er go ab ou t lo gg in g in to th e we bs it e?

11:20:54AM

5

A.

A us er wh o wa nt ed to lo g in to We bs it e A w ou ld ha ve to

11:20:59AM

6

ei th er lo g in to We bs it e A wi th a pr ev io us ly es ta bl is he d

11:21:04AM

7

us er na me an d pa ss wo rd , or th ey wo ul d ha ve to cl ic k on th e

11:21:09AM

8

w o r d s t h a t sa y " r e g i s t e r a n ac c o u n t . "

11:21:14AM

9

w o u l d b e t a k e n t o t h e r e g is t r a t i o n s c r e e n , w h e r e th e y

11:21:17AM

10

w o u l d h a v e to c r e a t e a u s e r na m e a n d p a s s w o r d i n o r d e r t o

11:21:20AM

11

lo g in to the we bs it e.

11:21:21AM

12

11:21:38AM

13

Q. A.

I ha ve th e ex hi bi t i n fr on t o f m e.

11:21:40AM

14

Q.

Wh at is Exh ib it 12B ?

11:21:41AM

15

A.

Ex hi bi t 12 B sh ow s th e in de x th at a us er wo ul d be

11:21:47AM

16

di re ct ed to af te r lo gg in g in to We bs it e A wi th a us er na me

11:21:52AM

17

an d pa ss wo rd .

11:21:56AM

18

av ai la bl e wi th in We bs it e A for us er s to ac ce ss an d

11:22:01AM

19

distr ibute conte nt.

11:22:04AM

20

R. BE CK ER :

11:22:07AM

21

11:22:08AM

22

11:22:09AM

23

11:22:10AM

24

11:22:10AM

25

If you can tu

A t t ha t p o in t t h ey

rn i n y ou r bo ok to Ex hi bi t 1 2B ?

Th e in de x di sp la ys all

of th e fo ru ms

Yo ur Ho no r, I mo ve to ad mi t 12 B an d

to pub lis h. R. FI EM AN : TH E CO UR T:

No ob je ct io n. It ma y be ad mi tt ed .

(E xh ib it No . 12 B wa s ad mi tt ed .) By

r. Becker:


59

11:22:24AM

1

Q.

11:22:30AM

2

nu mb er of wo rd s in pu rp le ty pe .

11:22:34AM

3

A.

11:22:42AM

4

If a us er we re to cl ic k on on e of th os e pu rp le wo r ds th e y

11:22:46AM

5

w o u l d b e d i r e c t e d t o th a t p a r t i c ul a r f o r u m o n W e b si t e A .

11:22:52AM

6

Fo r ex am pl e, re fe rr in g to th is ex hi bi t, on e of th e li nk s

11:22:59AM

7

is un de r the he ad in g "P re te en Ph ot os ," an d it is ti tl ed ,

11:23:05AM

8

"Gi rls HC. "

11:23:07AM

9

Q.

11:23:20AM

10

pa r t i c u l a r fo r u m y o u ju s t m e n t io n e d , " G i r l s HC " ?

11:23:24AM

11

A. I d o .

11:23:25AM

12

Ca n yo u po in t it out on

11:23:29AM

13

Q. A.

11:23:40AM

14

Q.

Fi rs t, th e de si gn at io n "H C, " wh at do es th at

11:23:45AM

15

reference?

11:23:45AM

16

A.

11:23:51AM

17

a co mm on ab br ev ia ti on fo r ha rd co re , wh ic h re fe rs to

11:23:56AM

18

pe n a t r a t i v e s e x u a l a c t i v i t y.

11:24:00AM

19

Q.

11:24:10AM

20

w i t h i n?

11:24:10AM

21

A.

11:24:13AM

22

in di ca ti ng th at th es e fo ru ms pu rp or t to ad ve rt is e an d

11:24:17AM

23

dis tri but e ima ges and vid eos of pre pub esc ent chi ldr en

11:24:23AM

24

eng age d in har dco re sex ual acti vit y.

11:24:25AM

25

Q.

Sp ec ia l Ag en t Al fi n, on Ex hi bi t 12 B, th er e ar e a Wh at ar e th os e ca ll ed ?

Th os e ar e th e va ri ou s fo ru ms avai la bl e on We bs it e A.

Sc ro ll do wn on the di

gi ta l ve rs io n.

D o y ou se e th e

th e mo ni to r?

(Indicating.)

In th e co nt ex t of a we bs it e, suc h a s We bs it e A, HC is

An d wh at br oa de r se t of fo ru ms is th at "Gi rl s HC "

Th at is unde r the hea di ng of , "P re te en Vide os ,"

If a us er cl ic ke d on th e wo rd -- cl ic ke d on th at wo rd


60

11:24:35AM

1

"G ir ls HC " on th e we bs it e, wh at wo ul d ha pp en ?

11:24:37AM

2

A.

11:24:44AM

3

Pr et ee n Vi de os - Gi rl s Ha rd co re fo ru m, an d th ey wo ul d se e

11:24:47AM

4

a li st in g on th ei r sc re en al l of th e to pi cs cu rr en tl y

11:24:49AM

5

av ai la bl e in th at fo ru m.

11:24:51AM

6

Q.

Wh en you

11:24:53AM

7

A.

An in di vi du al to pi c wi th in th e fo ru m wo ul d co nt ai n

11:24:59AM

8

li nk s to im ag es an d vi de os of a pa rt ic ul ar se t of im ag es

11:25:03AM

9

of ch il d po rn og ra ph y.

11:25:07AM

10

on e of th es e po st s, af te r en te ri ng th e fo ru m a us er wo ul d

11:25:10AM

11

al so ha ve th e op ti on to cr ea te a ne w po st an d sh ar e li nk s

11:25:14AM

12

to im age s an d vi de os of ch il d po rn og ra ph y.

11:25:23AM

13

11:25:26AM

14

11:25:29AM

15

11:25:31AM

16

tr yi ng to pr es en t so me ba ck gr ou nd to ge t to th e qu es ti on s

11:25:35AM

17

th at yo ur Ho no r ha d, ju st in te rm s of ho w th e si te

11:25:38AM

18

functioned.

11:25:38AM

19

11:25:41AM

20

11:25:42AM

21

By

r. Becker:

11:25:45AM

22

Q.

Sp ec ia l Ag en t Al fi n, we re yo u fa mi li ar with the

11:25:48AM

23

gen era l ope rat ion of the net wor k inv est iga tiv e tec hni que

11:25:52AM

24

th at wa s de pl oy ed on th is we bsi te be tw ee n Fe br ua ry 20t h

11:25:55AM

25

and

At tha t po in t th e us er wou ld be di re ct ed to th e

sa y "t op ic s, " wh at does tha t me an ?

T H E C O U R T:

In ad di ti on to be in g ab le to ac ce ss

I t s e e m s t o m e t h i s is al l s t u f f t h a t

I ha ve re ad ab ou t. R. B EC KE R :

TH E CO UR T: R. BEC KE R:

In de ed , yo ur H on or .

We w er e ju st

ov e ri gh t al on g , co u ns el . In de ed , yo ur Hon or .

a r c h 4t h ?


61

11:25:56AM

1

A. I a m .

11:25:57AM

2

Q.

11:26:04AM

3

th ei r ac ti vi ty , an d in fo rm at io n th at wa s co ll ec te d by th e

11:26:07AM

4

N I T?

11:26:08AM

5

A.

Yes.

11:26:09AM

6

Q.

Wa s su ch a re po rt mai le d fo r th e us er Pe wt er ,

11:26:14AM

7

P-E-W-T-E-R?

11:26:20AM

8

A.

11:26:20AM

9

Q.

11:26:22AM

10

11:26:26AM

11

11:26:27AM

12

11:26:30AM

13

11:26:41AM

14

11:26:42AM

15

By

r. Becker:

11:26:42AM

16

Q.

Ar e yo u fa mi li ar wi th Go ve rn me nt 's Ex hi bi t 15 ?

11:26:45AM

17

A.

I am.

11:26:48AM

18

co py of th e us er ac co un ts fo r th e us er Pe wt er .

11:26:55AM

19

Q.

11:27:02AM

20

11:27:04AM

21

11:27:11AM

22

R. FI EM AN :

No ob je ct io n.

11:27:13AM

23

R. BEC KE R :

We wou ld mo ve t o a dm it tha t un de r

11:27:15AM

24

se al, be ca us e it do es co nt ai n co nt ra ba nd ch il d

11:27:19AM

25


Wer e rep ort s gen era ted regard ing users , inc lud ing

Yes. Yo ur H on or - Sp ec ia l Ag en t Al fi n, ca n yo u lo ok at Go ve rn me nt 's

Exh ibi t 15? R. BE C K ER :

Y o u r H o n o r, I t h i n k t h a t i s a DV D

di sk th at mi gh t be in yo ur Ho no r' s bi nd er . TH E CO UR T:

Th er e is a di sk he re .

That is a disk that I created that contains a

If you can tu

rn t o E xh ib it 15 A i n yo ur bo ok .

R. BE CK ER :

Fi rs t, I wo ul d mo ve to ad mi t

Exh ibi t 15.

W e w o u ld m o v e t o a d m i t t h a t u n d e r s e a l .


62

R. FIE MA N:

No obj ec ti on , yo ur Hon or .

11:27:22AM

1

11:27:23AM

2

11:27:26AM

3

11:27:27AM

4

By

r. Becker:

11:27:28AM

5

Q.

Sp ec ia l Ag en t Al fi n, do yo u ha ve 15 A in fr on t of yo u?

11:27:32AM

6

A. I d o .

11:27:32AM

7

Q.

Wh at is Exh ib it 15A ?

11:27:34AM

8

A.

Ex hi bi t 15 A is a sc re en sh ot fr om th e us er ac co un t --

11:27:40AM

9

th at is co nt ai ne d fr om th e re po rt of th e Pe wt er us er

11:27:44AM

10

ac co un t th at is co nt ai ne d on Ex hi bi t 15 .

11:27:48AM

11

scr een sho t con tai ns inf orm ati on abo ut the Pew ter use r

11:27:51AM

12

ac co un t, in cl ud in g th at it was lo gg ed in to We bs it e A fo r

11:27:56AM

13

ap pr ox im at el y 99 ho ur s an d 37 mi nu te s ov er th e co ur se of

11:28:00AM

14

the Pew ter use r acc oun t's exi ste nce .

11:28:05AM

15

Q.

Ca n yo u tu rn to Ex hi bi t 15 B?

11:28:12AM

16

A.

I have it in front of me.

11:28:15AM

17

Q.

Wh at i s 15 B?

11:28:16AM

18

A.

15 B is an ot he r sc re en sh ot fr om th e Pe wt er us er

11:28:22AM

19

re po rt .

11:28:25AM

20

ge ne ra te d by th e NI T wh en it wa s de pl oy ed ag ai ns t th e

11:28:29AM

21

Pew ter use r acc oun t.

11:28:33AM

22

11:28:36AM

23

11:28:38AM

24

11:28:41AM

25

TH E CO UR T:

It ma y be adm it te d un de r se al .

(E xh ib it No . 15 was ad mi tt ed .)

Th is pa rt ic ul ar

Th is sc re en sh ot in cl ud es th e in fo rm at io n th at wa s

R. F IE MA N :

Ob je ct io n , you r Ho no r.

mi s s t a t e m e n t o f t h e r e p o r t . TH E COU RT : R. FI EM AN :

Th at i s a

It is n o t d e p l o y e d - -

Sp ea k th ro ug h th e mi c. Th e NI T i s no t de pl oy ed ag ai n st th e


63

11:28:45AM

1

us er ac co un t.

It is de pl oy ed agai ns t th e ta rg et comp ut er .

11:28:49AM

2

Th at is a st at em en t in th e re co rd .

11:28:51AM

3

11:28:55AM

4

11:28:57AM

5

11:28:59AM

6

fac ts alr ead y in evi den ce.

11:29:04AM

7

TH E CO UR T:

11:29:06AM

8

11:29:07AM

9

11:29:10AM

10

y ou r Ho no r.

11:29:12AM

11

adm iss ibi lit y of the exh ibi t.

11:29:14AM

12

11:29:20AM

13

11:29:23AM

14

11:29:26AM

15

11:29:27AM

16

11:29:34AM

17

11:29:34AM

18

11:29:36AM

19

By

r. Becker:

11:29:42AM

20

Q.

Sp ec ia l Ag en t Al fi n, ju st go in g fr om le ft to ri gh t on

11:29:45AM

21

Ex hi bi t 15 B, ca n yo u ju st in di ca te wh at in fo rm at io n is

11:29:48AM

22

contai ned here?

11:29:52AM

23

A.

11:29:55AM

24

by the NIT.

11:30:00AM

25

th e NI T co ll ec te d th e in fo rm at io n.

TH E CO UR T:

I gu es s th at is a su g ge st io n to yo u.

Is th at an ob je ct io n? R. FI EM AN :


It mi ss ta te s th e

I am no t go i ng to j ud ge th at ri gh t

now. R. BEC KE R:

It see ms lik e a se ma nt ic arg um en t,

I do n' t th in k it wou ld wei gh on th e

TH E CO UR T: R. BE CK ER :

Go a he ad . Ha s 15B be en ad m it te d, yo ur Ho no r ?

I

w o u l d m o v e to a d m i t 1 5 B . R. FIE MA N: TH E CO UR T:

No obj ec ti on , yo ur Hon or . It ma y be ad mi tt ed .

(E xh ib it No . 15 B wa s ad mi tt ed .) R. BE CK ER :

Pe rm is si on to pu bl is h.

Thi s inf orm ati on sho ws inf orm ati on tha t was gener ate d T h e f i r st c o l u mn i s t h e d a t e a n d t i m e t h a t It in di ca te s th at th e


64

11:30:03AM

1

in fo rm at io n wa s co ll ec te d on or ab ou t Fe br ua ry 28 th , 20 15 .

11:30:09AM

2

Th e se co nd co lu mn , ti tl ed "U RL ," in di ca te s th e sp ec if ic

11:30:15AM

3

pa g e w i t hi n W e b s i t e A t h a t t h e P e w t e r u s e r a c c o u nt

11:30:20AM

4

ac ce ss ed wh en th e NI T co ll ec te d th e in fo rm at io n fr om th e

11:30:23AM

5

us er ac co un t.

11:30:30AM

6

us er na me was

11:30:36AM

7

ad dr es s th at wa s ut il iz ed by th e Pe wt er us er ac co un t on

11:30:41AM

8

t ha t sp e ci fi c da te an d ti me .

11:30:48AM

9

A

11:30:53AM

10

t ha t a us er ca n ut il iz e to co nn ec t to th e in te rn et .

11:30:58AM

11

un iq ue id en ti fi er is th e id en ti fi er th at wa s in us e by th e

11:31:02AM

12

us er of th e Pe wt er ac co un t on th e da te an d ti me th at th e

11:31:06AM

13

N I T c ol l e c t e d t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n.

11:31:11AM

14

Wi n d o w s c om p u t e r n a m e t h a t w a s i n u s e b y t h e u s e r of th e

11:31:16AM

15

Pe wt er us er ac co un t on th is d at e an d ti me .

11:31:21AM

16

in di ca te s th e Wi nd ow s us er na me of th e co mp ut er th at wa s

11:31:27AM

17

ac ti ve ly us in g th e Pe wt er us er ac co un t on th is da te an d

11:31:31AM

18

t im e.

11:31:38AM

19

th e op er at in g sy st em of the co mp ut er th at wa s ut il iz in g

11:31:42AM

20

th e Pe wt er us er ac co un t on th is da te an d ti me .

11:31:48AM

21

Q.

11:31:52AM

22

fu nc ti on of th e NI T, or so me th ing el se ?

11:31:53AM

23

A.

11:32:00AM

24

ge ne ra te d af te rw ar ds , no t as a fu nc ti on of th e NI T.

11:32:05AM

25

Ut il iz in g th e IP ad dr es s th at was id en ti fi ed by the NI T,

"S it e us er na me " in di ca te s th at th e si te Pe wt er .

"I P ad dr es s" in di ca te s th e IP

" A C" re fe rs to

AC ad dr e ss .

A C a d d r e s s i s a u n i qu e i d e n t i fi e r o n a n et w o r k c a r d Th i s

"Host name" refers to the

Th e " us er na me " co lu m n is bl an k.

" Lo g on na me "

"O S" re fe rs to

An d th en th e co lu mn , "I P ge o lo ca ti on ," wa s th at a

It wa s not .

Th e IP geo lo ca ti on f ie ld s we re


65

11:32:08AM

1

pu b l i c l y a v a i l a b l e d a t a ba s e s w e r e s e a r c h e d t o i n d i c a t e

11:32:11AM

2

th at IP ad dr es s on th at gi ve n da te an d ti me wa s as si gn ed

11:32:17AM

3

to a Co mc as t in te rn et -- ex cu se me , Co mc as t ca bl e ac co un t,

11:32:24AM

4

lo ca te d ap pr ox im at el y in th e ar ea of Va nc ou ve r,

11:32:27AM

5

Wa s h i n g t o n .

11:32:28AM

6

Q.

11:32:36AM

7

w a s th e a ct i o n t h a t t r i g g e re d t h e d e p l o y m e n t o f t h e N I T to

11:32:39AM

8

thi s use r?

11:32:40AM

9

A.

11:32:44AM

10

inf orm ati on ind ica tes tha t an ind ivi dua l log ged int o

11:32:47AM

11

We b s i t e A w i t h a u s e r n a m e a n d p a s s w o r d , a n d t h e n

11:32:51AM

12

na vi ga te d to a se ct io n of th e we bs it e th at I pr ev io us ly

11:32:54AM

13

po i n t e d o ut , e n t i t l e d , "P r e t e e n V id e o s - G i r ls H a r dc o r e , "

11:33:01AM

14

ag ai n, an ab br ev ia ti on fo r ha rd co re .

11:33:06AM

15

th is fo ru m, an d th en th ey op en ed a sp ec if ic po st wi th in

11:33:10AM

16

th at fo ru m th at pu rp or te d to ad ve rt is e im ag es an d vi de os

11:33:15AM

17

of ch il d po rn og ra ph y.

11:33:18AM

18

pa g e on W e b si t e A , t h e N I T c o l l e c t e d t h e i n f o r ma t i o n

11:33:23AM

19

as so ci at ed wi th th e Pe wt er us er ac co un t.

11:33:26AM

20

Q.

11:33:29AM

21

ac ti on wou ld the use r ta ke ?

11:33:32AM

22

ph y s i c a l l y do ?

11:33:32AM

23

A.

11:33:37AM

24

po s t , w h i c h w a s a p o st i n d i c a t i ve o f a d v e r t i s i n g c h i l d

11:33:43AM

25


Sp ec ia l Ag en t Al fi n, wh at do es th is re co rd in di ca te

In th e ca se of the

Pe wt er us er ac co un t, th is

Th e us er ac ce ss ed

Af te r ac ce ss in g th at pa rt ic ul ar

An d in orde r to acce ss that part ic ul ar page , wh at Wh at wou ld the use r

Th e us er wo ul d ha ve cl ic ke d on th e ti tl e of th at

A f t e r c l i c ki n g on t h at p o s t , t he N I T w o u l d


66

11:33:45AM

1

hav e col lec ted the inf orm ati on wit hou t any thi ng bei ng

11:33:49AM

2

a pp ar en t to the use r.

11:33:52AM

3

ad di ti on al ac ti on s.

11:33:57AM

4

Th er e wa s no po p- up me ss ag e.

11:34:01AM

5

ba c k g r o u n d .

11:34:03AM

6

Q.

Ca n yo u pu ll up Ex hi bi t 13 B?

11:34:12AM

7

A.

Th at exh ib it is no t in my bi nd er .

11:34:38AM

8

11:34:43AM

9

11:34:47AM

10

11:34:49AM

11

11:34:52AM

12

11:34:56AM

13

R. FI E M AN :

W e d o n e e d t o s e e i t.

11:35:01AM

14

R. BE CK ER :

Ca n I as k th at we tu rn ou r mo ni to r s

11:35:04AM

15

j us t s o i t i s no t vi s ib le t o th e ga ll er y?

11:35:18AM

16

mo v e to a dm i t 1 3 B .

11:35:22AM

17

T H E CO U R T:

11:35:33AM

18

11:35:36AM

19

11:35:38AM

20

r e c a l l o f f t h e t o p o f m y h e a d.

11:35:40AM

21

y ou r bi nd er if yo u wa nt me to .

11:35:56AM

22

11:35:58AM

23

to lo ok a t i t.

11:36:06AM

24

By

r. Becker:

11:36:07AM

25

Q.

So rr y, Sp ec ia l Age nt Al fi n.

Th e us er d id not hav e to tak e a ny No th in g ap pe ar ed on th ei r sc re en.

R. BE CK ER :

Th e ac ti vi ty oc cu rr ed in th e

Yo ur Ho no r, Ex hi bi t 13 B, be ca us e it

co nt ai ns co nt ra ba nd im ag es is on ly in yo ur Ho no r' s bi nd er . TH E CO UR T:

I di dn 't he ar al l o f t ha t.

R. BE CK ER :

Ex hi bi t 1 3B is on ly i n yo ur Ho no r 's

b i n d e r, b e c au s e i t c o n t a i n s co n t r a b a n d .

W h a t i s 1 3 B?

Fi rs t , I wo ul d

A g e n t Al f i n , w h a t i s

13B? TH E WI TN ES S:

R. FIE MA N:

I' m so rr y, you r Ho no r, I do n' t I can take a quick look at

Yo ur Hon or , I ha ve had an

op po rt un it y

I ha v e n o ob je c ti on to it s ad mi ss io n.

Ar e you ab le to se e


67

11:36:11AM

1

Exh ibi t 13B ?

11:36:13AM

2

A.

I a m n ow.

11:36:13AM

3

Q.

Wh at i s it ?

11:36:14AM

4

A.

Af te r th e We bs it e A wa s ta ke n of f li ne in

11:36:21AM

5

an off -l in e ve rs io n of th e we bs it e wa s cr ea te d, wh ic h is

11:36:24AM

6

av ai la bl e fo r re vi ew at an FB I fa ci li ty .

11:36:29AM

7

de pi ct s We bs it e A as it ap pe ar s wh en it wa s ta ke n of f

11:36:32AM

8

li ne .

11:36:36AM

9

We b s i t e A t h a t d e p i c ts t h e s p e c i f i c p o s t t h a t th e P e wt e r

11:36:42AM

10

us er ac co un t ac ce ss ed wh en the NI T co ll ec te d the

11:36:45AM

11

in fo rm at io n as so ci at ed wi th th e Pe wt er us er ac co un t.

11:36:49AM

12

sh ow s a po st in g in th e Pr et ee n Vi de os - Gi rl s Ha rd co re

11:36:55AM

13

s ec ti on o f We bs it e A.

11:36:58AM

14

Q.

So rr y.

11:37:00AM

15

A.

Th e po st in g ti tl e is , "G ir l 12 is h ea ts othe r gi rl s

11:37:06AM

16

sla sh dir ty tal k."

11:37:36AM

17

Q.

11:37:41AM

18

by the NIT?

11:37:44AM

19

collected?

11:37:44AM

20

A.

11:37:49AM

21

th e F BI i n t he Ea st er n Di st ri ct o f Vi rg in i a.

11:37:54AM

22

th at da ta wa s th en ma de av ai la bl e to me in my of fi ce s, as

11:37:57AM

23

we l l as my sq u a d m a t es , i n L i n t h i c u m ,

11:38:02AM

24

Q.

11:38:06AM

25

ha ve te st if ie d to , Ex hi bi t 15?

ar ch 20 15 ,

Th at we bs it e

Th is is a sc re en sh ot fr om th at re cr ea te d ve rs io n of

It

An d it con ta in s --

Wh at i s th e po st in g ti tl e?

Sp ec ia l Ag en t Al fi n, to wh er e wa s th e da ta co ll ec te d W h e r e w a s t h a t re t u r n e d t o w h e n i t w a s

Th at da ta wa s re tu rn ed to a co mp ut er co nt ro ll ed by A co py o f

a r y l a nd .

Wa s th at da ta the n us ed to cr ea te th e re po rt th at yo u


68

11:38:08AM

1

A.

It wa s.

11:38:09AM

2

Q.

An d wh er e wa s th e we bs it e se rv er of th e we bs it e

11:38:25AM

3

lo ca te d at th e ti me th at al l of th is ac ti vi ty wa s

11:38:27AM

4

occurring?

11:38:28AM

5

A.

11:38:31AM

6

co mp ut er se rv er in th e Ea st er n Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia .

11:38:47AM

7

11:38:49AM

8

Honor.

11:39:26AM

9

By

r. Becker:

11:39:29AM

10

Q.

Sp ec ia l Ag en t Al fi n, on ce th e in fo rm at io n wa s

11:39:32AM

11

re tu rn ed -- th e NI T in fo rm at io n wa s re tu rn ed to a

11:39:34AM

12

go ve rn me nt co mp ut er , ho w, if at al l, we re ag en ts ab le to

11:39:37AM

13

acc ess it?

11:39:39AM

14

A.

11:39:43AM

15

We b s i t e A, th e i n f o r m a t i o n r e t u r n e d b y t h e N IT w a s f i r s t

11:39:49AM

16

se nt di re ct ly to a go ve rn me nt co mp ut er in th e Ea st er n

11:39:52AM

17

Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia .

11:39:56AM

18

re pl ic at ed to an ot he r se rv er lo ca te d at th e ma jo r ca se

11:40:00AM

19

co or di na ti on un it in Li nt hi cu m,

11:40:04AM

20

in fo rm at io n wa s th er e, av ai la bl e fo r re vi ew by th e ag en ts

11:40:06AM

21

w h o w er e m o n i t o r i n g t h e w e b s i t e 24 h o u r s a d ay , s e v e n d a y s

11:40:10AM

22

a we ek , un ti l th e we bs it e wa s ta ke n of f li ne .

11:40:23AM

23

Q.

11:40:28AM

24

yo u st at ed it oc cu rr ed wh en th e us er cl ic ke d on th at

11:40:31AM

25

pa r t i c u l a r m es s a g e t h r ea d t h a t y o u d e s c r i b e d .

It wa s lo ca te d on a go ve rn me nt- co nt ro ll ed se rv er --

R. BE CK ER :

Th e co ur t' s br ie f in du lg en ce , yo ur

Du ri ng th e co urs e of op er at in g an d mo ni to ri ng

Th at info rm at io n wa s th en

ar yl an d.

Th at

In ter ms of th e de pl oy me nt of th e NI T, was

th at --

W a s t h a t an


69

11:40:35AM

1

act ive or pas siv e pro ces s?

11:40:37AM

2

A.

11:40:41AM

3

su ch th at wh en on e us er ac ce ss ed th e po st , as th e Pe wt er

11:40:47AM

4

ac co un t di d, th at th e NI T wo ul d th en be tr ig ge re d an d th en

11:40:51AM

5

de pl oy ed .

11:40:55AM

6

ne ed to ta ke ad di ti on al ac ti on s to de pl oy th e NI T ag ai ns t

11:41:02AM

7

indiv idual users .

11:41:03AM

8

Q.

11:41:07AM

9

th at wa s na vi ga te d to by Pe wt er ?

11:41:11AM

10

A.

11:41:18AM

11

in the Pr et ee n Vi de os - Gi rl s Ha rd co re fo ru m be ca us e us er s

11:41:23AM

12

ac ce ss in g po st s in th at fo ru m we re at te mp ti ng to ac ce ss or

11:41:29AM

13

di st ri bu te or ad ve rt is e ch il d po rn og ra ph y.

11:41:35AM

14

w h e r e a u s e r i n t h a t f o r u m a c c e s s e d a p o s t , we c a n

11:41:40AM

15

af fi rm at iv el y st at e th at a us er ha s at te mp te d to ac ce ss

11:41:44AM

16

child pornog raphy.

11:41:50AM

17

Q.

11:41:52AM

18

N I T, w as t h a t u l t i m a t e l y - -

11:41:54AM

19

11:41:59AM

20

11:42:02AM

21

11:42:04AM

22

au th or iz e us to de pl o y th e NI T in th at fa sh io n.

11:42:09AM

23

th e FB I, as no te d in th e wa rr an t, th at we ma y fu rt he r

11:42:15AM

24

re st ri ct ho w we de pl oy th e NI T, de pl oy ed it in su ch a

11:42:19AM

25

fa sh io n th at th e NI T wa s de pl oy ed ag ai ns t us er s who

It wa s a pa ss iv e pro ce ss .

Th e NI T was co nf ig ur ed

Th e FB I ag en ts mo ni to ri ng th e we bs it e di d no t

An d wh y wa s th at th e ca se fo r th e pa rt ic ul ar fo ru m

Th e NI T was depl oy ed ag ai ns t use rs who acce ss ed po st s

At th e po in t

In te rm s of th e in fo rm at io n th at wa s co ll ec te d by th e

TH E CO UR T:

Th e NI T di d no t ju st go to an yo ne th at

lo gg ed in to th e we bs it e? TH E WI TN ES S:

No , you r Hon or .

Th e war ra nt di d A nd th e n


70

att emp ted to acc ess ill ici t con ten t.

11:42:22AM

1

11:42:28AM

2

11:42:36AM

3

11:42:38AM

4

11:42:40AM

5

11:42:43AM

6

11:42:45AM

7

11:42:47AM

8

wa r r a n t a f fi d a v i t .

11:42:52AM

9

By

r. Becker:

11:42:53AM

10

Q.

Wa s th e in fo rm at io n co ll ec te d by th e NI T ul ti ma te ly

11:42:55AM

11

pr o v i d e d t o F B I i n t h e V a n c o uv e r , W a s h i n g t o n a r e a ?

11:43:00AM

12

11:43:00AM

13

A. Q.

11:43:13AM

14

in th is ar ea ba se d on th at in fo rm at io n?

11:43:15AM

15

A.

11:43:19AM

16

in fo rm at io n th at wa s co ll ec te d by th e NI T, se rv ed a

11:43:25AM

17

su bp oe na to Co mc as t ca bl e, wh ic h id en ti fi ed a re si de nc e in

11:43:32AM

18

V a n c o u v e r, W as h i n g t o n .

11:43:37AM

19

us er re po rt fo r th e Pe wt er ac co un t, an d ot he r in fo rm at io n

11:43:40AM

20

ab ou t the in ve st ig at io n, wa s pr ov id ed to th e Se at tl e FB I

11:43:44AM

21

off ice , whi ch cov ers the Van cou ver , Was hin gto n are a.

11:43:48AM

22

Us in g th at in fo rm at io n, a se ar ch wa rr an t wa s ex ec ut ed at

11:43:52AM

23

the defen dant's reside nce.

11:43:54AM

24

Q.

11:43:59AM

25

co ll ec te d by th e NI T re co ve re d fr om th e ho me of th e

T H E C O U R T:

So it was only attached to a

pa r t i c u l a r fo r u m ? TH E WI TN ES S:

It wa s on ly de pl oy ed wi th in ce rt ai n

fo ru ms on th e we bs it e, ye s, yo ur Ho no r. TH E C OU RT : R. BE CK ER :

Ok ay . Yo ur Ho no r, I ca n po in t to th e I w i l l h a v e an o p p o r t u n it y f o r t h a t .

It wa s. An d ju st in su mm ar y, wh at ac ti on s we re ta ke n by FB I

Th e ma jo r ca se co or di na ti on un it , af te r re ce iv in g th e

T h a t i n fo r m a t i o n , a l o n g w i t h a

Wa s in fo rm at io n pe rt ai ni ng to th e -- in fo rm at io n


71

11:44:02AM

1

de fe nd an t ,

11:44:03AM

2

A.

11:44:08AM

3

id en ti fi ed by th e NI T wa s fo un d to be as so ci at ed wi th a

11:44:13AM

4

pa r t i c u l a r n et w o r k a d a p t e r t h a t wa s r e c o v e r e d f r o m t h e

11:44:16AM

5

defend ant's reside nce.

11:44:19AM

6

Q.

11:44:23AM

7

als o rec ove red dur ing tha t sea rch ?

11:44:24AM

8

A.

11:44:29AM

9

qu an ti ty of ch il d po rn og ra ph y, im ag es , an d vi de os we re

11:44:35AM

10

rec ove red fro m dig ita l dev ice s in the def end ant 's

11:44:37AM

11

residence.

11:44:43AM

12

11:44:45AM

13

ne gl ec te d to as k th at 13 B be fi le d un de r se al be ca us e of

11:44:49AM

14

co nt ra ba nd .

11:44:51AM

15

11:44:55AM

16

11:44:58AM

17

11:45:03AM

18

11:45:04AM

19

11:45:09AM

20

11:45:14AM

21

A l f i n , a n d t he n t h e d e f e n s e ma y h a ve s o m e q u e s t i o n s f o r

11:45:16AM

22

you.

11:45:18AM

23

11:45:30AM

24

11:45:37AM

25

Ye s.

r.

ic ha u d?

Sp ec if ic al ly t he u ni qu e

AC a dd re ss th at w as

To yo ur kn ow led ge , wa s ch il d po rn og ra ph y ev id en ce

Ye s.

I hav e re ad re po rt s ind ic at in g th at a lar ge

R. BEC KE R :

Yo ur Hon o r, for the

r ec or d, I th in k I

I wo ul d ma ke th at req ue st at th is ti me .

T H E CO U R T:

Yeah, it should be under seal.

If I

di dn 't sa y so , it ma y be ad mi tt ed . (E xh ib it No . 13 B wa s ad mi tt ed .) R. BEC KE R:

Do es you r Ho no r ha ve fur th er

qu es ti on s fo r th e go ve rn me nt at th is po in t? TH E CO UR T:

Ye ah , I do ha ve on e qu es ti on , Ag e nt

I s t he re an y wa y f or th e FB I to go ba ck do wn th i s NI T to get in to th e su bj ec t co mp ut er, th e us er 's co mp ut er? TH E WI TN ES S:

No , yo ur H on or .

Af te r th e NI T


72

11:45:39AM

1

co ll ec te d th e li mi te d am ou nt of in fo rm at io n th at it wa s

11:45:43AM

2

p e r m i t t e d t o c o l l e c t , t h e r e wa s n o th i n g t h a t r e s i d e d on

11:45:46AM

3

th e su bj ec t' s co mp ut er th at wo ul d al lo w th e go ve rn me nt to

11:45:49AM

4

go ba ck an d fu rt he r ac ce ss th at co mp ut er .

11:45:56AM

5

11:46:03AM

6

11:46:13AM

7

I yi el d to th e de fe ns e, yo ur Ho no r, I di d wa nt to po in t

11:46:16AM

8

yo ur Ho no r to the NIT

11:46:22AM

9

E xh ib it 1 to Do ck et 47 .

11:46:26AM

10

11:46:27AM

11

11:46:33AM

12

11:46:35AM

13

11:46:37AM

14

11:46:59AM

15

th e co ur t to Fo ot no te 8.

11:47:03AM

16

th e ap pl ic at io n an d af fi da vi t, as it di d, re qu es ts

11:47:06AM

17

au th or it y to de pl oy to an y us er wh o lo gg ed in wi th a us er

11:47:09AM

18

na me an d a pa ss wo rd --

11:47:11AM

19

11:47:12AM

20

11:47:14AM

21

p o i n t t h a t t hi s f o o t n o t e i nd i c a t e d t h a t , a l t h o ug h t he

11:47:16AM

22

ap pl ic at io n wa s to de pl oy to an y us er wh o lo gg ed in wi th a

11:47:22AM

23

us er na me an d a pa ss wo rd , th e af fi da vi t do es ar ti cu la te

11:47:25AM

24

th at th e FB I ma y de pl oy in a mo re li mi te d so rt of fa sh io n,

11:47:30AM

25

in cl ud in g in pa rt ic ul ar ar ea s of th e ta rg et we bs it e, su ch

TH E CO UR T: R. BEC KE R :

Th at ans we rs my qu es ti on , I gu es s. Yo ur Hon o r, I ju st wa nt to -- bef or e

se ar ch wa rr an t.

Th is is, aga in ,

It is Ex hi bi t 1 in ou r ex hi bi t

bo o k . TH E COU RT : R. BE CK ER : TH E CO UR T: R. BE C K ER :

TH E CO UR T: R. B EC KE R :

Wh at ex hi bi t? Ex hi bi t 1 in t he ex h ib it bo ok . Wh at p ag e? Page 24, Footnote 8.

I w o u l d p o in t

Fo ot no te 8 in di ca te s, al th ou gh

Yo u ar e dr op pi ng you r vo ic e. So rr y, y ou r Ho no r.

J us t to ma ke t he


73

11:47:34AM

1

as the ta rg et we bs it e su b-f or um s de sc ri be d in

11:47:39AM

2

Pa ra gr ap h 27 .

11:47:49AM

3

an d th at is on Pa ge 20 an d Pa ge 2 1, th at in cl ud es th e

11:48:05AM

4

su b- fo ru m th at we sa w ea rl ie r, th at is , Pr et ee n Vi deo s -

11:48:09AM

5

Gi rl s Ha rd co re , th e fo ru m in wh ic h th e de fe nd an t wa s

11:48:10AM

6

op er at in g at th e ti me th at th e NI T wa s de pl oy ed .

11:48:18AM

7

Th er e is no qu es ti on th e wa rr an t re qu es te d and wa s

11:48:22AM

8

gr an te d au th or it y to de pl oy to an yo ne wh o lo gg ed in wi th a

11:48:23AM

9

us er na me and pas sw or d.

11:48:26AM

10

de pl oy me nt oc cu rr ed .

11:48:38AM

11

Honor.

11:48:39AM

12

11:48:44AM

13

11:48:46AM

14

By

r. Fieman:

11:48:56AM

15

Q.

Goo d morni ng, Age nt Alfi n.

11:48:57AM

16

A.

Goo d mo rni ng.

11:48:58AM

17

Q.

I a m C olin F iem an.

11:49:02AM

18

at to rn ey s.

11:49:04AM

19

A.

Not for mal ly.

11:49:06AM

20

Q.

If the re is an yt hi ng I as k th at isn 't cle ar , an d we

11:49:10AM

21

ar e in so me co nf us in g te rr it or y, pl ea se ju st as k me to

11:49:14AM

22

res tat e the que sti on, oka y?

11:49:16AM

23

A.

Understood.

11:49:16AM

24

Q.

No w, we hav e be en goi ng ac tu al ly a co up le of ho ur s

11:49:19AM

25

no w tr yi ng to so rt ou t ex ac tl y wh at th is NI T do es , fo r

An d if yo ur Hon or lo ok s at Pa ra gr ap h 27 ,

THE COURT:

In thi s in st an ce tha t is how the

No th in g fu rt he r at th is po in t, yo ur

r. Fieman. CROSS-EXAMINATION

I a m o ne o f

r.

ichaud's d efense

We ha ve n' t me t be fo re , ha ve we ?


74

11:49:23AM

1

Ju dg e Br ya n.

Do yo u k no w i f Ju dg e Bu ch an a n ha d an y

11:49:29AM

2

in fo rm at io n or qu es ti on s be yo nd wh at is in th e wa rr an t

11:49:31AM

3

ab ou t how th is th in g wo rk ed wh en th e wa rr an t was ap pr ov ed ?

11:49:34AM

4

A.

11:49:39AM

5

fo r an y ad di ti on al in fo rm at io n be yo nd wh at wa s st at ed in

11:49:41AM

6

the war ran t aff ida vit .

11:49:42AM

7

Q.

11:49:45AM

8

t o f i gu r e t h i s o u t .

11:49:48AM

9

st ep- th ro ug h- st ep wi th ki nd of co nc re te im ag er y how a NI T

11:49:52AM

10

works.

11:49:56AM

11

b e e a s i e r.

11:49:57AM

12

11:49:58AM

13

A. Q.

11:50:06AM

14

in ve st ig at in g us er s of Si te A was th at yo u co ul dn' t te ll

11:50:14AM

15

w h o wa s s i g ni n g i n t o th i s s i t e, b e ca u s e t h e i r i d e n t i fy i n g

11:50:19AM

16

inf orm ati on was mas ked , rig ht?

11:50:20AM

17

A. That's correc t.

11:50:21AM

18

Q.

11:50:23AM

19

th e To r ne tw or k do es , it st ri ps ou t th at IP ad dr es s,

11:50:28AM

20

so me th in g li ke a ph on e nu mb er or an ad dr es s, th at wo ul d

11:50:31AM

21

no rm al ly be tr an sm it te d wi th th e us er ac ce ss in g the si te?

11:50:36AM

22

A.

11:50:39AM

23

in fo rm at io n is st ri pp ed out .

11:50:43AM

24

ne tw or k do es ob fu sc at e an d ma ke th at in fo rm at io n

11:50:47AM

25

dif fic ult , if not imp oss ibl e, to ide nti fy.

I am no t aw ar e wh et he r or no t Ju dg e Bu ch an an as ke d

No w, pl ea se be ar wi th me , be ca us e we ar e al l tr yi ng I want to kind of go

If yo u c a n g u i d e m e th r o u g h t h a t p r o c e s s, it w i ll Okay?

I wi ll answ er you r qu es ti on s. No w, the

pr ob le m th at the

FB I fa ce d wh en it wa s

An d th at 's be ca us e th at is wh at the

To r br ow se r or

I wo ul d no t ag re e wi th th e st at em en t th at th at I wo ul d ag re e th at th e To r


75

11:50:49AM

1

Q.

11:50:54AM

2

"y ou ," th e FB I, wa s, ho w do we ge t th e IP in fo rm at io n wh en

11:50:59AM

3

it is n' t se nt to th e we bs it e?

11:51:04AM

4

A.

11:51:09AM

5

IP in fo rm at io n is no t IP in fo rm at io n th at ca n be us ed to

11:51:12AM

6

ide nti fy the end -us er.

11:51:14AM

7

Q.

11:51:20AM

8

th e To r ne tw or k, bu t yo u re al ly ca n' t se e th ei r te le ph on e

11:51:23AM

9

nu mb er s; is th at fa ir ?

11:51:25AM

10

A.

I be li ev e th at 's a fa ir anal og y.

11:51:27AM

11

Q.

S o i t i s l i k e a p r i v a t e c a l l e r.

11:51:30AM

12

is ca ll in g th e we bs it e, bu t yo u ca n' t te ll be ca us e th e

11:51:32AM

13

nu mb er is no t co mi ng up?

11:51:38AM

14

A.

I wo ul d ag re e wi th th at ch ar ac te ri za ti on.

11:51:42AM

15

Q.

So th e po i nt of t he NI T th en wa s th at wh en -- at

11:51:47AM

16

le as t as far as th e wa rr an t au th or iz ed , so me bo dy si gn ed

11:51:49AM

17

in to th e we bs it e, so me bo dy in Vi rg in ia co ul d ac ti va te th e

11:51:52AM

18

N I T, c o r r e ct ?

11:51:56AM

19

A.

11:52:01AM

20

in Vir gin ia.

11:52:02AM

21

Q.

Ok ay .

11:52:06AM

22

A.

Wh en ce rt ai n co nd it io ns th at we re de sc ri be d in th e

11:52:09AM

23

af fi da vi t we re me t, ye s.

11:52:11AM

24

Q.

Su ch as sig ni ng into the web

11:52:13AM

25

A.

Yes.

So the pro bl em yo u w er e tr yi n g t o so lv e - - I sa y

So me IP in fo rm at io n is se nt to th e we bs it e, bu t th at

So ba si ca ll y pe op le ar e ca ll in g in to th e we bs it e on

Th e NI T was not

You want to know who

I un de rs ta nd tha t is loo se .

ac ti va te d ma nu al ly by an in di vi du al

So it wa s set up to act

iv at e aut om at ic al ly ?

si te ?


76

11:52:13AM

1

Q.

11:52:18AM

2

se t up th e NI T to be ac ti va te d wh en so me bo dy si gn ed in ,

11:52:23AM

3

correct?

11:52:24AM

4

A. That's correc t.

11:52:25AM

5

Q.

11:52:30AM

6

th e NI T is be in g ac ti va te d, yo u do n' t ha ve th at te le ph on e

11:52:33AM

7

nu mb er or co mp le te IP ad dr es s, co rr ec t?

11:52:36AM

8

wa n t to g et ?

11:52:37AM

9

A.

11:52:40AM

10

to th e NI T be in g ac ti va te d, we do no t ha ve an y id en ti fy in g

11:52:44AM

11

in fo rm at io n, in cl ud in g an IP ad dr es s, fo r th at us er .

11:52:48AM

12

Q.

11:52:53AM

13

th en se nt , wi th ou t th e us er 's kn ow le dg e, fr om th e si te in

11:52:57AM

14

Vi r g i n i a t o t h e u s e r ' s c o m pu t e r , w h e r e v e r t ha t m a y b e ,

11:53:02AM

15

correct?

11:53:02AM

16

A.

Th e us er afte r ce rt ai n co nd it io ns ar e met --

11:53:05AM

17

Q.

Su ch as si gn in g in?

11:53:06AM

18

A.

Co rr ec t.

19

Q.

Yes.

11:53:10AM

20

A.

An d in th e ca se of th is de fe nd an t, ac ce ss in g a

11:53:13AM

21

pa r t i c u l a r p os t o n t h e w e b s i t e.

11:53:18AM

22

th e we bs it e, th at us er ha s tr ig ge re d ac ti on s th at ca us es

11:53:21AM

23

hi s co mp ut er to do wn lo ad ce rt ai n in fo rm at io n fr om th e

11:53:23AM

24

we b s i t e .

11:53:26AM

25

in fo rm at io n be in g do wn lo ad ed by th e us er wi th th e NI T

So at so me poi nt so me FB I ag en t or te ch sp ec ia li st

An d at the poi nt tha t th e pe rs on is si gn in g in , an d

Th at 's wh at yo u

Pr io r to a us er lo gg in g in to th e we bs it e, an d pr io r

Correct.

A n d t he wa y t h e N I T w o r k s is th a t i t i s

As ar ti cu la te d in th e wa rr an t.

B y a c c e s s i n g t h a t p o s t on

W e c o n f i g u r e d t h e NI T to s u p p l e m e n t t he


77

11:53:30AM

1

instructions.

11:53:31AM

2

Q.

11:53:35AM

3

al re ad y we ar e us in g wo rd s li ke "s up pl em en t" th at ar e a

11:53:37AM

4

li tt le co nf us in g.

11:53:41AM

5

in , t he FB I ha s se t it u p s o th e NI T wi ll be de pl oy ed at

11:53:47AM

6

si gn in , or at so me ot he r po in t, co rr ec t?

11:53:50AM

7

A.

Af te r ce rt ai n co nd it io ns ar e met , ye s.

11:53:53AM

8

Q.

Th en th at NI T is re al ly li ke a pa ck ag e of co de or

11:53:56AM

9

dat a, rig ht?

11:53:57AM

10

A.

Yes.

11:53:58AM

11

Q.

An d wh en th e us er is si gn in g in , th ey do n' t kn ow th at

11:54:03AM

12

th ey ar e ge tt in g th at pa ck ag e of co de or da ta se nt to

11:54:06AM

13

t he m, ri gh t?

11:54:09AM

14

and sec ret ?

11:54:10AM

15

A.

11:54:13AM

16

co mp ut er , it is in te nd ed to be in vi si bl e to th e us er .

11:54:16AM

17

Q.

11:54:19AM

18

al l of a su dd en th is th in g in th e ba ck gr ou nd --

11:54:22AM

19

in fo rm at io n is be in g se nt fr om Vi rg in ia , to , in th is ca se ,

11:54:24AM

20

a Wa sh in gt on co mp ut er , by th e FBI ?

11:54:26AM

21

A.

11:54:30AM

22

Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia by th e us er wh o ha s ac ce ss ed th e

11:54:33AM

23

we b s i t e .

11:54:33AM

24

Q.

11:54:39AM

25

Wa s h i n g t o n ?

Ok ay .

An d, ag ai n, I nee d to go

re al ly sl ow ly be ca us e

Ju st st ep -b y- st ep .

Th e us er has si gn ed

Th e wh ol e po in t is it is in th e ba ck gr ou nd ,

Wh en th e us er do wn lo ad s th e NI T in st ru ct io ns to th ei r

It i s in vi si bl e.

Ok ay .

Th ey a r e si gn in g in a nd t he n

It is be in g do wn lo ad ed fr om th e se rv er in th e Ea st er n

Ho w do es the

NI T co de get

fr om Vi rg in ia to

I t t r a v e l s , r i g h t?


78

11:54:41AM

1

A.

11:54:45AM

2

lo gg in g in to th e we bs it e wh en th ey ar e us in g the pa ss wo rd

11:54:47AM

3

an d af te r ce rt ai n co nd it io ns ar e me t.

11:54:49AM

4

Q.

11:54:52AM

5

Wa s h i n g t o n co m p u t e r i n t h i s ca s e , c o r r e c t ?

11:54:53AM

6

A. It do es .

11:54:54AM

7

Q.

11:54:58AM

8

w h o l e p o i n t i s t h a t i s s e c r et , c o r r e c t ?

11:55:00AM

9

A.

Correct.

11:55:00AM

10

Q.

So th en whe n th e NI T la nd s on th e Wa sh in gt on

11:55:05AM

11

co mp ut er , it do es ce rt ai n th in gs th at th e us er is no t

11:55:08AM

12

awa re of, cor rec t?

11:55:09AM

13

A. That's correc t.

11:55:11AM

14

Q.

11:55:16AM

15

th is ca se th e Wa sh in gt on co mp ut er , to fi nd th at

11:55:20AM

16

ide nti fyi ng inf orm ati on, lik e the IP add res s, cor rec t?

11:55:22AM

17

A.

11:55:25AM

18

in fo rm at io n id en ti fi ed in th e NIT wa rr an t at ta ch me nt to

11:55:30AM

19

the gov ern men t-c ont rol led com put er, in add iti on to the

11:55:33AM

20

in fo rm at io n th at th e us er' s co mp ut er wa s al re ad y se nd in g

11:55:36AM

21

to the gov ern men t-c ont rol led com put er.

11:55:38AM

22

Q.

11:55:40AM

23

in fo rm at io n, is no t be in g se nt wi th ou t th at NI T, ri gh t?

11:55:43AM

24

A.

11:55:48AM

25

in te rn et .

Ye s.

It is dow nl oa de d to th e us er 's co mp ut er af te r

So th e NI T co de tr av el s fr om Vir gi ni a to th e

An d th e us er do es no t kn ow th at is ha pp en in g.

Th e

Wh at it do es is it se ar ch es th e us er 's co mp ut er , in

It inst ru ct s th e us er 's comp ut er to se nd the

Bu t we know the

IP addr es s, the

id en ti fy in g

Th e us er 's IP ad dr es s is be in g tr an sm it te d ac ro ss th e Bu t gi ve n th e fu nc ti on of th e To r ne tw or k, th e


79

11:55:53AM

1

us er' s IP ad dr es s du ri ng th e no rm al co ur se of op er at io n of

11:55:57AM

2

a we bs it e th at op er at es on th e To r ne tw or k do es no t ma ke

11:56:00AM

3

it to the go ve rn me nt co mp ut er.

11:56:01AM

4

Q.

11:56:05AM

5

li ke yo u ha ve a po li ce st at io n -- FB I he ad qu ar te rs -- or ,

11:56:08AM

6

ex cu se me , th e FB I se rv er in Vi rg in ia wh er e th e NI T is

11:56:13AM

7

st or ed an d re ad y to go , ri gh t?

11:56:15AM

8

A.

11:56:18AM

9

yes.

11:56:18AM

10

Q.

11:56:24AM

11

ca n' t se e th e nu mb er , so yo u se nd th e NI T, li ke a po li ce

11:56:28AM

12

of fi ce r or ag en t, ou t of Vi rg in ia , to th e co mp ut er , to

11:56:31AM

13

fi nd th e IP ad dr es s, co rr ec t?

11:56:32AM

14

A.

11:56:37AM

15

an al og y, be ca us e an yo ne can ca ll an y ph on e nu mb er at an y

11:56:40AM

16

gi ve n ti me .

11:56:44AM

17

mo r e t h a n j u s t c a l l t h e w e b s i t e .

11:56:47AM

18

fr on t pa ge of th e we bs it e, an d at th at po in t th e NI T wo ul d

11:56:50AM

19

no t be dep lo ye d.

11:56:53AM

20

wi t h a u s e r n a m e a n d p a ss w o r d .

11:56:56AM

21

th at we ar e di st in gu is hi ng the di ff er en ce s in th e

11:56:59AM

22

analogies.

11:56:59AM

23

Q.

11:57:02AM

24

ty pe in th ei r us er na me an d pa ss wo rd on th e ho me pa ge to

11:57:05AM

25

get tha t pro ces s?

Ju st to tr y an d pi c tu re th is .

I t i s a li tt le bi t

Ou r se rv er that host ed Webs it e A wa s in Virg in ia ,

An d th en so me bo dy ca ll s in to th at se rv er , bu t he

I do n' t ne ce ss ar il y ag re e wi th th e ph on e ca ll

Fo r th e d ep lo ym en t o f ou r NI T, you had to

do

A n y o n e c o u ld a c c es s t h e

Th e y ha d to th en lo g in to th e we bs it e So I w a n t t o m a k e s u r e

I th in k tha t i s a fai r di st in ct i on .

Th ey ha ve to


80

11:57:06AM

1

A.

Correct.

11:57:07AM

2

Q.

Fa ir en ou gh .

11:57:11AM

3

ca se th e NIT , the un de rc ov er co de , rea ch es

11:57:16AM

4

ho me an d hi s co mp ut er , it la nd s on hi s co mp ut er , an d th en

11:57:19AM

5

fi nd s th e IP ad dr es s, an d sa ys se nd it ba ck to Vi rg in ia ,

11:57:22AM

6

correct?

11:57:22AM

7

A.

11:57:27AM

8

c od e a s be in g a po li c e of fi ce r or un de rc ov er co de .

11:57:32AM

9

ca n cl ar if y an yt hi ng th at I ha ve al re ad y st at ed ab ou t ho w

11:57:35AM

10

th e NI T is de li ve re d.

11:57:36AM

11

Q.

11:57:39AM

12


11:57:44AM

13

Wa s h i n g t o n --

11:57:47AM

14

A.

It is sen t to Vi rg in ia .

11:57:48AM

15

Q.

Se nt to Vir gi ni a.

11:57:50AM

16

A.

Wh er e th e NI T wa rr an t wa s au th or iz ed .

11:57:52AM

17

Q.

Th at is a li tt le bi t li ke an evi de nc e ro om , ri gh t?

11:57:56AM

18

Th at da ta is se cu re ly st or ed an d th en ag en ts ca n go in

11:57:59AM

19

la te r an d re tr ie ve it , lo ok at it , an d cr ea te al l of th es e

11:58:03AM

20

spr ead she ets tha t we hav e see n, cor rec t?

11:58:04AM

21

A.

11:58:07AM

22

co mp ut er in th e Ea st er n Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia , an d th at

11:58:09AM

23

inf orm ati on was pre ser ved as evi den ce.

11:58:11AM

24

Q.

11:58:18AM

25

ar e ta lk in g ab ou t se ar ch es -- the se ar ch an d the se iz ur e,

So on ce th at po li ce of fi ce r, or in thi s r.

ic ha ud 's

I do n' t ag re e wi th th e ch ar ac te ri za ti on of the

NI T Bu t I

So we kn ow it is de li ve re d to th e co m pu te r in And then when the IP address is sent back to I t i s s t o r e d t h e r e, r i g h t ?

The infor mat ion was

sen t to a gov ern men t-c ont rol led

No w, Ag en t Al fi n, ju st so we un de rs ta nd , yo u kn ow , we


81

11:58:22AM

1

ex ac tl y wh er e th e in fo rm at io n -- th e ev id en ce is ta ke n

11:58:24AM

2

f ro m, cor re ct ?

11:58:27AM

3

str ugg lin g wit h her e, rig ht?

11:58:29AM

4

A.

11:58:32AM

5

answe red today.

11:58:34AM

6

Q.

11:58:38AM

7

st at em en ts in th e go ve rn me nt' s pl ea di ng wh en it

11:58:40AM

8

cha rac ter ize s the IP inf orm ati on as inf orm ati on sei zed

11:58:46AM

9

fr om

11:58:49AM

10

11:58:53AM

11

11:58:58AM

12

11:58:59AM

13

11:58:59AM

14

11:59:01AM

15

By

r. Fieman:

11:59:02AM

16

Q.

Do yo u ag re e or di sa gr ee wi th th e st at em en t th at th e

11:59:04AM

17

IP ad dr es s, an d al l th at th ey we re ta lk in g ab ou t,

11:59:07AM

18

con sti tut es infor mat ion seiz ed from

11:59:12AM

19

11:59:13AM

20

11:59:14AM

21

TH E CO UR T:

11:59:16AM

22

TH E WI TN ES S:

Th at is an iss ue tha t we are ki nd o f

I be li ev e th at is on e of the que st io ns tha t is bei ng

Ye s.

Wo ul d you ag re e or di sa gr ee wi th va ri ou s

ic ha ud 's c om pu te r? R. B E C K ER :

Objection.

It i s ir r e l e v a n t.

I t is

as ki ng fo r a le ga l co nc lu si on, yo ur Ho no r. R. FI E M AN :

I a m j u s t a s k i n g i f h e a g r e e s or

dis agr ees wit h tha t cha rac ter iza tio n. TH E CO UR T:

R. BE CK ER :

Re ph ra se th e qu es ti on .

Ob je ct io n .

ich aud 's compu ter ?

Ag ai n, ca ll in g for a

legal conclu sion. I th in k yo u ma y an sw er . Co ul d yo u re st at e th e qu es ti on ?

23

By

r. Fieman:

11:59:19AM

24

Q.

Do yo u ag re e or di sa gr ee wi th th e st at em en t th at th e

11:59:25AM

25

De pa rt me nt of Ju st ic e it se lf ha s ma de ch ar ac te ri zi ng th e


82

11:59:28AM

1

IP ad dr es s an d al l th is ev id en ce as in fo rm at io n se ize d

11:59:32AM

2

fr om

11:59:45AM

3

A.

11:59:51AM

4

c om pu te r.

11:59:58AM

5

th at an IP ad dr es s is no t ne ce ss ar il y as si gn ed di re ct ly to

12:00:03PM

6

a co mp ut er , bu t it ut il iz es t ha t IP ad dr es s.

12:00:07PM

7

to ma ke su re th at my an sw er is no t mi sc on st ru in g ho w th e

12:00:11PM

8

in te rn et and IP ad dr es se s wo rk .

12:00:13PM

9

Q.

12:00:20PM

10

th e te le ph on e ana lo gy .

12:00:23PM

11

so me bo dy ma ke s a ph on e ca ll , an d yo u ha ve ca ll er ID , yo u

12:00:25PM

12

ca n se e th ei r te le ph on e num be r co me up on yo ur ce ll ph on e,

12:00:29PM

13

correct?

12:00:29PM

14

A.

Correct.

12:00:29PM

15

Q.

If yo u ca n' t se e th e te le ph on e nu mb er, bec au se th ey

12:00:31PM

16

ha ve a pr iv at e ca ll er or a nu mb er -b lo ck in g de vi ce, th en

12:00:34PM

17

yo u ca n't se e th e te le ph on e nu mb er ju st lo ok in g at yo ur

12:00:36PM

18

p h o n e , r i g h t?

12:00:37PM

19

A. Genera lly, yes.

12:00:38PM

20

Q.

12:00:40PM

21

sa y, we ll , we be li ev e th is pe rs on is en ga ge d in cr im in al

12:00:42PM

22

a ct iv it y, so we ar e go in g t o g o t o hi s ho us e, a nd w e a re

12:00:45PM

23

go in g to op en th e do o r an d go in si de an d lo ok at t he

12:00:49PM

24

te le ph on e nu mb er th at he ha s wr it te n do wn in his ad dr es s

12:00:51PM

25

bo o k ?

ic ha ud 's c om pu te r? Th e in fo rm at io n wa s re po rt ed b y

r.

ic ha ud 's

y hes it at io n in gi vi ng a fla t yes to t ha t is

L e t me p u t it t h i s wa y :

I f so m e b o d y --

I ju st wa n t

L e t ' s us e

I kn ow it i s not pe rf ec t .

If

So wh at yo u mi gh t do , on e al te rn at iv e is , yo u mi gh t

T h a t w o u l d b e o n e wa y to ge t t h e t e l e ph o n e n u mb e r ,


83

12:00:54PM

1

correct?

12:00:54PM

2

A.

12:00:58PM

3

fr om no t kn ow in g a pe rs on' s ph on e nu mb er to be in g in si de

12:01:01PM

4

the ir hou se.

12:01:03PM

5

Q.

12:01:04PM

6

12:01:07PM

7

t ak e on e ho ur .

12:01:17PM

8

of a ne w ma gi st ra te jud g e he re .

12:01:23PM

9

st op at 3: 30 , 3: 45 at th e la te st , th is af te rn oo n.

12:01:30PM

10

y ou r ey e on th e cl oc k.

12:01:34PM

11

he re ov er th e we ek en d, fr om wh at I un de rs ta nd ab ou t th e

12:01:38PM

12

we a t h e r b a c k e a s t .

12:01:39PM

13

R. BE CK ER :

Th er e is no t go in g to be an op ti on .

12:01:43PM

14

R. F I E M AN :

D r . So g h o i a n is h e r e.

I am no t tr ac ki ng in yo ur ex am pl e o n h ow we ha ve go ne

Withdrawn. TH E CO UR T:

It is lu nc ht im e, co un se l.

Le t' s ju st

We ha ve a ce r em on y at 4: 00 , th e in du ct io n We are goi ng to h av e to Ke ep

Yo u g uy s pr ob ab ly wa nt t o st ay

As I

15

in di ca te d, he wa s su pp os ed to be in Eu ro pe , an d

12:01:49PM

16

r es ch ed ul ed .

12:01:51PM

17

Wh a t we w ou l d a s k i s , i f m a y b e w e c o u l d a v a i l o t h e r

12:01:57PM

18

w i t n e s s e s, I c o u l d f i n is h w i t h A g e n t A l f i n , t h a t wi l l t a k e

12:01:59PM

19

ab ou t 15 mi nu te s --

12:02:00PM

20

12:02:02PM

21

do es n' t ma tt er to me wh et he r yo u ta ke wi tn es se s ou t of

12:02:05PM

22

or de r.

12:02:11PM

23

I un de rs ta nd th is be tt er no w.

12:02:12PM

24

R. FI EM AN :

01:06:50PM

25

He is su pp o se d t o b e in Eu ro pe on

T H E CO U R T:

Talk to counsel about that.

on da y .

It

I am not sur e th at we ha ve a lo t mo re wi tn es se s.

Th an k yo u, yo ur Ho no r.

(Lunc h break. )


84

TH E CO UR T:

Ag en t Al fi n, do yo u wa nt to re su me t he

01:06:50PM

1

01:06:56PM

2

01:06:56PM

3

01:06:59PM

4

By

r. Fieman:

01:07:05PM

5

Q.

Ag en t Al fi n, I ju st ha ve on e mo re qu ic k qu es ti on

01:07:09PM

6

ab ou t th e NI T, an d th en I a m go in g to wr ap up wi th a f ew

01:07:11PM

7

qu es ti on s ab ou t on e ot he r ma tt er .

01:07:16PM

8

A.

Okay.

01:07:17PM

9

Q.

I ju st wa nt ed to cl ar if y, af te r th e IP ad dr es s an d

01:07:20PM

10

ot he r id en ti fy in g in fo rm at io n was se nt to th e FB I, you

01:07:24PM

11

th en us ed th at in fo rm at io n to go to Co mc as t an d ge t an

01:07:28PM

12

ad dr es s an d al l th at st uf f th at wo ul d he lp yo u lo ca te

01:07:32PM

13

ph y s i c a l a d d r e s s e s f r o m t h e I P a d d r e s s , c o r r e c t ?

01:07:35PM

14

A.

01:07:39PM

15

th e fa ct th at th e su bs cr ib er is li ke ly in th e Va nc ou ve r,

01:07:45PM

16

Wa s h i n g t o n a re a , a n d y o u ca n u se p u b l i c l y a v a i l a b l e

01:07:48PM

17

da ta ba se s to ch ec k th at in fo rm at io n, bu t we do se rv e a

01:07:51PM

18

su bp oe na to Co mc as t to id en ti fy th e ac tu al su bs cr ib er.

01:07:53PM

19

Q.

01:07:56PM

20

yo u sa w Pe wt er si gn in g in to th e we bs it e?

01:08:01PM

21

A.

01:08:05PM

22

th at op er at es on th e To r ne tw or k, th e us er 's tr ue IP

01:08:08PM

23

ad dr es s is no t vi si bl e to th e we bs it e.

01:08:10PM

24

Q.

01:08:13PM

25

fr om th e co mp ut er th at yo u we re ab le to go to Co mc as t,

wi t n e s s s ta n d ? TH E WIT NE SS :

Th at is co rr ec t.

Ye s, yo ur Hon or .

Ok ay ?

Th e IP ad dr es s its el f al er ts us to

So wh y di dn 't yo u ju st go to Co mc as t or ig in al ly wh en

Du ri ng th e no rma l co ur se of op er at io n, th e we bs it e

It is on ly aft er the

IP add re ss was sen t to Vir gi ni a


85

01:08:16PM

1

correct?

01:08:16PM

2

A. That's correc t.

01:08:17PM

3

Q.

01:08:24PM

4

b i t, b r i e f ly , a b o u t t h e w e b s i t e i ts e l f .

01:08:27PM

5

pr e v i o u s l y at G o v e r n m e n t E x hi b i t 1 2 A .

01:08:30PM

6

fr on t of yo u?

01:08:30PM

7

A.

I am pulling it up now.

01:08:42PM

8

Q.

Yo u hav e see n tha t ph ot og ra ph be fo re .

01:08:46PM

9

fa mi li ar wi th th e re co rd in th is ca se , co rr ec t?

01:08:47PM

10

A. I a m .

01:08:48PM

11

Q.

01:08:55PM

12

lo g- in pa ge; is th at co rr ec t?

01:08:56PM

13

A.

Yes.

01:08:57PM

14

Q.

An d do yo u no ti ce do wn so me wh er e in th e lo we r ri gh t

01:09:05PM

15

co rn er th er e is a da te ?

01:09:06PM

16

A.

Yes.

01:09:06PM

17

Q.

An d wha t is th e da te ?

01:09:07PM

18

A.

Feb rua ry 3rd , 2015 .

01:09:09PM

19

Q.

So that Gov er nm en t 12 A de pi ct s th e ho me pa ge as it

01:09:17PM

20

app ear ed app rox ima tel y 17 day s bef ore the sea rch war ran t

01:09:21PM

21

appli cation,

01:09:22PM

22

A. That's correc t.

01:09:22PM

23

Q.

01:09:27PM

24

Feb rua ry 20t h, 201 5?

01:09:28PM

25

A.

No w, pr ev io us ly --

No w, we ar e mo vi ng on to a

li tt le

You looked D o y o u h a v e t h a t in

I have it in front of me. Yo u are

An d th at 12 A is a sh ot of th e we bs it e' s ho me pa ge , th e

correc t?

Be ca us e the sea rc h wa rr an t wa s ob ta in ed on

Th e NI T sear ch war ra nt ?


86

01:09:29PM

1

Q.

Th e NI T sea rc h wa rr an t, yes.

01:09:31PM

2

A.

Correct.

01:09:32PM

3

Q.

C a n yo u no w tu r n to --

01:09:41PM

4

ha s be en ma rk ed as De fe ns e Ex hi bi ts A1 5 an d A1 6.

01:09:46PM

5

01:09:54PM

6

01:09:59PM

7

A g e n t A l f i n , I b e l i e v e t h o s e a r e j u s t a d d i ti o n a l

01:10:01PM

8

co pi es of wh at is al re ad y in Go ve rn me nt Ex hi bi t 14, ju st

01:10:04PM

9

so th e re co rd is cl ea r.

01:10:06PM

10

A.

01:10:17PM

11

ap pe ar to be th e sa me im ag es .

01:10:19PM

12

Q.

01:10:22PM

13

pi c t u r e s d e p i c t a l a p t o p t h at I b e li e v e w a s s e i z ed i n

01:10:29PM

14

N a p l e s, F l o ri d a , o n F e b r ua r y 19 t h, 2 0 1 5 ; i s t h a t co r r e c t ?

01:10:32PM

15

A.

01:10:37PM

16

la pt op wa s ac tu al ly se iz ed on Fe br ua ry 20 th .

01:10:40PM

17

Q.

01:10:44PM

18

wa r r a n t a pp l i c a t i o n , co r r e c t ?

01:10:47PM

19

re co ll ec ti on on th e da te th at the Na pl es , Fl or id a se ar ch

01:10:52PM

20

w a s e x e c u t ed ?

01:10:54PM

21

A.

01:10:56PM

22

oc cu r on the 19t h.

01:11:00PM

23

th e re si de nc e on Fe br ua ry 20 th .

01:11:03PM

24

th e ac tu al la pt op wo ul d ha ve be en se iz ed .

01:11:05PM

25

Q.

I am go i n g to sh o w yo u wh a t

If I ma y ap pr oa ch , yo ur Hon or ?

We jus t su pp li ed

th es e ex hi bi ts to yo u.

Is th at ri gh t?

Le t me ve ri f y wh at is in Go ve rn me nt 14 .

No w, it is cor

re ct th at --

Ye s, th es e

Ac tu a ll y, th es e tw o

I be li ev e th e se ar ch wa rr an t rec or d re fl ec ts th at th e

We will look for the search --

That is in the search

W o u l d t h a t r ef r e s h y o u r

C o u l d y o u t a ke a l o ok a t t h a t ?

Th e be gi nn in g of th e ex ec ut io n of th e wa rr an t di d

Ok ay .

I ju st wa nt t o cl ar if y th at we ex it ed Th at wo ul d be th e ti me

An d whe n we are ta lk in g abo ut th e Nap le s,


87

01:11:08PM

1

Fl or id a re si de nc e, we ar e ta lk in g ab ou t th e re si de nc e of

01:11:11PM

2

th e or ig in al op er at or or ad mi ni st ra to r of th is si te , or

01:11:15PM

3

on e of th e op er at or s; is th at co rr ec t?

01:11:17PM

4

A. That's correc t.

01:11:18PM

5

Q.

01:11:22PM

6

01:11:28PM

7

By

r. Fieman:

01:11:30PM

8

Q.

Yo u ar e fa mi li ar wi th th e ph ot og ra ph s th at we re ta ke n

01:11:33PM

9

in Napl es, Flo rid a, cor rec t?

01:11:34PM

10

A.

01:11:36PM

11

wa r r a n t .

01:11:37PM

12

Q.

01:11:39PM

13

to Go ve rn me nt 14 .

01:11:47PM

14

b a n n e r i n a l i t t l e b i t of d e t ai l f o r P l a y p e n ; i s th a t

01:11:52PM

15

co rr ec t?

01:11:55PM

16

we l c o m e s y o u" ?

01:11:56PM

17

A. It do es .

01:11:57PM

18

01:11:58PM

19

01:12:00PM

20

01:12:03PM

21

01:12:10PM

22

01:12:14PM

23

01:12:17PM

24

01:12:19PM

25

An d wh at was his nam R. BEC KER :

e, do yo u re ca ll ?

Ob je ct io n to re le va nc e.

Ye s, I wa s pr es en t fo r th e ex ec ut io n of th at se ar ch

So yo u we re pr es en t.

It is t he se c on d pi ct ur e th at sh ow s a

It sa ys in th e up pe r le ft -h an d co rn er , "P la yp en

R. FIE MA N: TH E CO UR T: ab ou t.

No w, I wo ul d lik e y ou to tu r n

Yo ur Hon or , do you

ha ve tha t ex hi bi t?

I do n' t kn ow wh at y ou are tal ki ng

Ar e yo u ta lk in g ab ou t A1 4? R. FI EM AN : TH E CO UR T:

Go ve rn me nt 14 , yo ur Ho no r. Th at is th e, "U se o f c el l- si te

simula tor techno logy"? R. FI EM AN :

Go ve rn me nt 14 sh ou ld be tw o pi ct ur es

of a la pt op , yo ur Ho no r.


88

01:12:20PM

1

T H E C O U R T:

That is 15 and 16.

01:12:27PM

2

TH E CL ER K:

He is in th e go ve rn me nt 's .

01:12:27PM

3

01:12:29PM

4

ar e th e sa me .

01:12:31PM

5

By

r. Fieman:

01:12:31PM

6

Q.

Le t me ref er th en to A1 5 an d 16 -- De fe ns e A1 5 an d

01:12:37PM

7

A 1 6.

01:12:44PM

8

Fe br ua ry 19 th or on th e mo rn in g of Fe br ua ry 20 th ; is th at

01:12:48PM

9

correct?

01:12:48PM

10

A. That's correc t.

01:12:49PM

11

Q.

01:12:53PM

12

w a s i n f a c t i n t h e p r o c e s s o f s e i z i n g t h e c on t r o l of th e

01:12:57PM

13

we b s i t e , c o r r e c t ?

01:12:59PM

14

A.

01:13:02PM

15

timefr ame, yes.

01:13:02PM

16

Q.

01:13:06PM

17

wa r r a n t a pp l i c a t i o n w a s c o m p l e t e d a n d p r e s e n t e d t o t h e

01:13:09PM

18

jud ge in Vir gin ia, cor rec t?

01:13:11PM

19

A.


01:13:11PM

20

Q.

So no w yo u ca n se e in the

01:13:15PM

21

th er e is a lo go th at ap pe ar s th er e?

01:13:17PM

22

A.

Ye s, th er e is.

01:13:18PM

23

Q.

An d do yo u see any

01:13:24PM

24

gi rl s in th at le ft co rn er?

01:13:26PM

25

A.

R. F IE MA N:

Th at 's f in e.

Th e de fe ns e ex hi bi ts

T h o s e s h o w t h e we b s i t e as it a p p e a r ed on

An d th os e pi ct ur es we re tak en as yo u we re -- th e FB I

It ha pp en ed in a si mi la r -- cl os el y- re la te d

An d th en sh or tl y af te rw ar ds , on th e 20 th , th e NI T

up pe r le ft -h an d co rn er th at

la sc iv io us di sp la y of pr ep ub es ce nt

Th e lo go de pi ct ed in th is im ag e de pi ct s wh at ap pe ar s


89

01:13:30PM

1

to be a pr ep ub es ce nt fe ma le po se d in a se xu al ly su gg es ti ve

01:13:35PM

2

m a n n e r.

01:13:36PM

3

Q.

01:13:41PM

4

anywh ere there?

01:13:41PM

5

A.

I d o n ot.

01:13:42PM

6

Q.

Do you

01:13:45PM

7

A.

I d o n ot.

01:13:46PM

8

Q.

It is fa ir to sa y th at the Feb ru ar y 3r d lo go tha t we

01:13:50PM

9

sa w ea rl ie r di d no t ex ac tl y ma tc h wh at yo u se iz ed on th e

01:13:53PM

10

19th, correc t?

01:13:54PM

11

A.

Th e logo di d chan ge.

01:13:56PM

12

Q.

At an y po in t is th e wa rr an t ap pl ic at io n am en de d or

01:14:02PM

13

co rr ec te d to ch an ge th e de sc ri pt io n of th e im ag es th at

01:14:08PM

14

ap pe ar ed wi th th e lo go ?

01:14:09PM

15

A.

01:14:14PM

16

of re vi ew , an d it wa s no t up da te d to in cl ud e my

01:14:17PM

17

ob se rv at io ns fr om th e ni gh t of Fe br ua ry 19 th and mo rn in g

01:14:20PM

18

of Fe br ua ry 20 th .

01:14:23PM

19

01:14:24PM

20

01:14:36PM

21

01:15:02PM

22

A g e n t A l f i n p e r t a i n in g to t h i s i s s u e , w h i c h w a s - -

01:15:04PM

23

you.

01:15:04PM

24

01:15:05PM

25

D o y o u s e e an y n u d i t y o r - -

Do yo u s e e t w o f e m a l e s

se e th ei r le gs spr ea d ap ar t?

Th e wa rr an t fo r th e NI T re fl ec te d a sp ec if ic pe ri od

R. FI EM AN :

Th an k you .

Th at is al l the qu es ti on s

R. BEC KE R:

Yo ur Hon or , ma y I re di re ct Spe ci al

I ha ve .

REDIRE CT EXAMIN ATION By

r. Becker:


Thank

90

01:15:06PM

1

Q.

01:15:09PM

2

w h e r e t h e a d m i n i s t r a t o r c h a n g e d , a s y o u t e s t if i e d a bo u t ,

01:15:11PM

3

th e lo go of th e we bs it e?

01:15:13PM

4

A.

Yes.

01:15:13PM

5

Q.

An d wh en di d th at oc cu r, ba se d on ex am in at io n of th e

01:15:17PM

6

we b s i t e ?

01:15:17PM

7

A.

01:15:21PM

8

of Fe br ua ry 19 th , se ve ra l ho ur s be fo re hi s ar re st.

01:15:25PM

9

Q.

01:15:28PM

10

that?

01:15:28PM

11

A.

01:15:32PM

12

the web sit e, ind ica tin g tha t the adm ini str ato r had cha nge d

01:15:35PM

13

the log o.

01:15:36PM

14

Q.

Ca n I re fe r yo u an d as k yo u to rev ie w Ex hi bi t 12 D?

01:15:56PM

15

A.


01:15:58PM

16

Q.

W h a t i s E x h i b i t 1 2 D?

01:16:11PM

17

re vi ew Ex hi bi t 13 A.

01:16:17PM

18

A.


01:16:20PM

19

Q.

Wh at is Exh ib it 13A ?

01:16:22PM

20

A.

Ex hi bi t 13A is

01:16:28PM

21

se ct io n of Web si te A.

01:16:33PM

22

Co nt es t. "

01:16:37PM

23

adm ini str ato rs and mod era tor s of Web sit e A abo ut cha ngi ng

01:16:40PM

24

th e lo go of We bs it e A.

01:16:46PM

25

Sp ec ia l Ag en t Al fi n, di d th er e co me a po in t in ti me

It oc cu rr ed ap pr ox im at el y in the ea rl y ev en in g ho ur s

Wa s th er e a po st in g on the

we bs it e th at re fl ec te d

Th er e wa s a po st in g in th e ad mi ni st ra ti on se ct io n of

Excuse m e.

I'm s orry.

Please

y a po lo gi es .

a po st in g fr om th e ad mi ni st ra ti on Th e po st is ent it le d, "Lo go

An d it ha s a di sc us si on be tw ee n va ri ou s

R. BE CK ER :

ov e Ex hi bi t 13 A in t o ev id en ce , yo ur


91

Honor.

01:16:50PM

1

01:16:50PM

2

01:16:50PM

3

01:16:52PM

4

01:16:52PM

5

By

r. Becker:

01:16:52PM

6

Q.

If I ca n di re ct yo ur att en ti on to the las t pa ge of

01:16:56PM

7

Exh ibi t 13A ?

01:16:59PM

8

A.


01:17:01PM

9

Q.

An d is th er e a po st in g th at in di ca te s wh en th e

01:17:05PM

10

ad mi ni st ra to r pu t th e ne w lo go on to th e we bs it e?

01:17:08PM

11

A.

01:17:11PM

12

b y t h e p r i m a r y a d m i n i s t ra t i v e a c c o u n t t h a t s t at e s , " I j u s t

01:17:15PM

13

p u t i t u p. "

01:17:19PM

14

da te d Fe br ua ry 20 th , 20 15.

01:17:25PM

15

so me ti me on Fe br ua ry 19 th , 20 15 .

01:17:30PM

16

be c a u s e t he t i m e z o n e o f th e w e b s it e w a s s e v e r a l h o u r s

01:17:33PM

17

ah ea d of ea st er n ti me .

01:17:35PM

18

Q.

01:17:47PM

19

th e in it ia l lo go ju st a fe w mo me nt s ag o; is th at ri gh t?

01:17:49PM

20

A.

Yes.

01:17:50PM

21

Q.

Wh en wa s th e fi rs t ti me th at you

01:17:56PM

22

rec oll ect ion , the web sit e in que sti on?

01:17:57PM

23

A.

01:18:01PM

24

que sti on wou ld hav e bee n app rox ima tel y Aug ust 201 4, aft er

01:18:06PM

25

it ca me on li ne .

R. FI EM AN : TH E CO UR T:

No ob je ct io n. It ma y be ad mi tt ed .

(E xh ib it No . 13 A wa s ad mi tt ed .)

Th er e is .

Th er e is a po st in g in th is th re ad cr ea te d

T h a t p o st i n g , a c c o r d i n g t o t h e w e b s i t e, is

In te rm s of th e - -

In actu al it y, th at oc cu rr ed Th e ti me di sc re pa nc y is

Yo u rev ie we d th e t wo im ag es on

re vi ew ed , to yo ur

Th e fi rs t ti me tha t I re vi ew ed th e we bs it e in


92

01:18:07PM

1

Q.

01:18:10PM

2

of th e si te ?

01:18:11PM

3

A.

01:18:16PM

4

fi rs t vi ew in g of it up un ti l th e ex ec ut io n of th e se ar ch

01:18:20PM

5

wa r r a n t at th e a d m i n is t r a t o r ' s r e s i d e n c e , i t f e a t u r e d t h e

01:18:26PM

6

or ig in al lo go , th e on e th at wa s de sc ri be d in the wa rr an t

01:18:29PM

7

af fi da vi t, th at fe at ur ed wh at ap pe ar ed to be two

01:18:34PM

8

pr e p u b e s c e n t f e m a l e s .

01:18:36PM

9

Q.

01:18:38PM

10

ad mi ni st ra to r, do yo u re ca ll ta ki ng pa rt ic ul ar no ti ce of

01:18:41PM

11

an y ch an ge to th e we bs it e's lo go?

01:18:44PM

12

A.

01:18:47PM

13

we b s i t e a nd w o u l d h a ve s e e n th e ne w l o g o , i t d i d no t j u mp

01:18:50PM

14

ou t to me as a si gn if ic an t ch an ge to th e we bs it e or a

01:18:52PM

15

ma t e r i a l c h a n g e t o t h e w e b s i t e, gi v e n t h e c on t e n t of th e

01:18:55PM

16

lo go an d its si mi la ri ty to the pr ev io us lo go .

01:18:58PM

17

Q.

01:19:03PM

18

om it te d fr om th e NI T wa rr an t in an y wa y?

01:19:05PM

19

A. Absolu tely not.

01:19:06PM

20

Q.

01:19:31PM

21

ho w a us er co mm un ic at es wi th a we bs it e, to go br ie fl y ba ck

01:19:35PM

22

to tha t to pi c.

01:19:39PM

23

su ch as th e on e in th is ca se , wh at so rt of in fo rm at io n

01:19:42PM

24

do es th at us er se nd to th e we bs it e?

01:19:47PM

25

A.

An d at th at ti me wh at im ag es wer e pr es en t on th e lo go

Ev er y ti me that

I re vi ew ed th e we bs it e, be tw ee n my

At th e ti me yo u we r e in th e ho me of the

No .

At th e t im e, wh il e I wo ul d ha ve cl ea rl y se en th e

Wa s it yo ur i nt en t t ha t th e ch an ge to th e lo go be

Sp ec ia l Ag en t Al fi n, ju st a fe w br ie f qu es ti on s ab ou t

Wh en a us er co mm un ic at es wi th a we bs it e,

Du ri ng th e no rma l co ur se of op er at io n of a we bs it e,


93

01:19:50PM

1

su ch as We bs it e A, wh en a us er ac ce ss es th e we bs it e, an d

01:19:55PM

2

th en lo gs in to th e we bs it e, th ey ar e se nd in g va ri ou s

01:19:59PM

3

p i e c e s o f i n f o r m a t i o n t o t h at w e b s i t e .

01:20:02PM

4

inc lud es inf orm ati on abo ut pro ces ses run nin g on the use r's

01:20:06PM

5

co mp ut er.

01:20:10PM

6

th e we bs it e.

01:20:13PM

7

we b s i t e r es p o n d s b y s e n d i n g in f o r m a t i o n b a c k t o t h e u s e r 's

01:20:18PM

8

co mp ut er, an d th at us er can vi ew th at in fo rm at io n in si de

01:20:21PM

9

of a we b br ow se r.

01:20:25PM

10

as te xt in fo rm at io n or gr ap hi ca l in fo rm at io n.

01:20:29PM

11

th e us er re ma in s co nn ec te d to the we bs it e, th at on go in g

01:20:32PM

12

exc han ge of inf orm ati on con tin ues bet wee n the use r's

01:20:35PM

13

com put er and the web sit e.

01:20:36PM

14

Q.

01:20:39PM

15

we b s i t e , a n d t h e w e b s i t e i s se n d i n g i n f o r m a t i o n b a c k to

01:20:41PM

16

the use r?

01:20:42PM

17

A.


01:20:42PM

18

Q.

Wh et he r or no t th er e ha s be en an y so rt of NI T

01:20:46PM

19

ins tal led on the web sit e?

01:20:46PM

20

A.

Correct.

01:20:47PM

21

Q.

An d is tha t t he ca s e fo r we bs it es o n T or as we ll as

01:20:50PM

22

we b s i t e s o n t h e r e g u l a r i n t e r n et ?

01:20:52PM

23

A. That's correc t.

01:20:52PM

24

Q.

01:20:59PM

25

is ha pp en in g in th e ba ck gr ou nd in or de r fo r th e us er to

That information

It al so in cl ud es re qu es ts fo r in fo rm at io n fr om Du ri ng th e no rm al co ur se of op er at io n, th at

Th at in fo rm at io n is ty pi ca ll y di sp la ye d An d wh il e

So th e us er 's co mp ut er is se nd in g in fo rm at io n to th e

An d wh en a us er cl ic ks on a li nk on a we bs it e, wha t


94

01:21:02PM

1

t he n g o t o t he ne xt pa rt of t ha t si te ?

01:21:05PM

2

A.

01:21:09PM

3

us er 's co mp ut er se nd s a re qu es t to th e we bs it e to se nd

01:21:14PM

4

th at pa rt ic ul ar pa ge of th e we bs it e ba ck to th e us er 's

01:21:17PM

5

co mp ut er.

01:21:21PM

6

ho st in g th e we bs it e wi ll re sp on d to th at re qu es t by

01:21:23PM

7

se nd in g th e re qu es te d in fo rm at io n to th e us er 's co mp ut er.

01:21:37PM

8

01:21:38PM

9

01:21:39PM

10

01:21:41PM

11

01:21:43PM

12

01:21:45PM

13

By

r. Fieman:

01:21:45PM

14

Q.

Ag en t Al fi n, co ul d yo u tu rn to De fe ns e Ex hi bi t A8 ?

01:21:49PM

15

Do yo u ha ve th at de fe ns e bi nd er in fr on t of yo u?

01:21:51PM

16

A.

I w i l l p u l l i t up no w .

01:21:59PM

17

Q.

An d th at re fl ec ts an em ai l ch ai n be tw ee n my se lf ,

01:22:06PM

18

A s s i s t a n t U n i t e d S t a t e s A t t o r n e y K a t e V a u g h a n, S a m

01:22:12PM

19

w h o i s a n F B I a g e n t , co r r e c t ?

01:22:14PM

20

A. That's correc t.

01:22:14PM

21

Q.

01:22:15PM

22

A. That's correc t.

01:22:17PM

23

Q.

01:22:21PM

24

p o i n t y o u b e c a m e a w a re t h a t th e d e fe n s e a n d t h e U n i t e d

01:22:25PM

25

St at es At to rn ey 's Of fi ce ha d a di sc ov er y co nf er en ce in

Wh en a us er cli ck s on a li nk wit hi n a we bs it e, the

Ty pi ca ll y th e we bs it e -- th e co mp ut er se rv er

R. BE CK ER :

Th an k you , yo ur H on or .

No fu rt he r

R. FIE MA N:

So me ver y br ie f fo ll ow -u p on thi s

questions.

issue. RECROSS-EXAMINATION


autz,

And you rse lf?

Yo u ma y no t h av e be en awa re at th e ti me , bu t at som e


95

01:22:27PM

1

Se at tl e in ea rl y No ve mb er; is th at co rr ec t?

01:22:29PM

2

A.

01:22:32PM

3

de fe ns e at va ri ou s po in ts in ti me .

01:22:34PM

4

Q.

01:22:39PM

5

th at yo u re ce iv ed an d re co ll ec t, th er e wa s in it ia ll y a

01:22:45PM

6

co mm un ic at io n fr om me to Ka te Va ug ha n re ga rd in g the

01:22:49PM

7

ho me pa ge and sc re en sh ot s -- or ju st th e pi ct ur es th at we

01:22:53PM

8

ar e sh ow in g of th e ho me pa ge ; is th at co rr ec t?

01:22:56PM

9

01:22:58PM

10

I am aw ar e th at di sc ov er y ma te ri al wa s tu rn ed ov er to

An d yo u ar e aw ar e th at , ac co rd in g to th is em ai l ch ai n

R. BE CK ER :

Ob je ct to re le va nc e an d pe rs on al

kno wle dge , you r Hon or. R. FI EM AN :

11

Yo ur Ho no r, he sa id th at he is

01:23:02PM

12

fam ili ar wit h the pic tur e.

01:23:02PM

13

T H E CO U R T:

01:23:04PM

14

wh a t y ou 'r e a s k i n g h i m h e r e.

01:23:08PM

15

By

r. Fieman:

01:23:09PM

16

Q.

At so me po in t on No ve mb er 10 t h di d Ag en t

01:23:14PM

17

co nt ac t yo u ab ou t pr od uc in g a co py of th e sc re en pa ge --

01:23:17PM

18

th e ho me pa ge -- a sc re en sh ot of the hom ep ag e?

01:23:23PM

19

on th e fi rs t pa ge of A0 8 ?

01:23:25PM

20

A.

Ye s, he did co nt ac t me .

01:23:26PM

21

Q.

An d he ask ed yo u to sen d a ne w o r di ff er en t co py of

01:23:32PM

22

th e ho me pa ge th an ha d or ig in al ly be en pr od uc ed fo r the

01:23:36PM

23

def ens e; is tha t cor rec t?

01:23:37PM

24

A.

01:23:43PM

25

t ha t I se nt to Sp ec ia l Ag e nt

I t i s a f a i r ob j e c t i o n .

I don't know

au tz

If you loo k

Th is em ai l ch ai n do es n' t sp ec if y ex ac tl y wh ic h im ag es a ut z, bu t I di d se nd hi m


96

01:23:50PM

1

images.

01:23:51PM

2

Q.

01:23:54PM

3

No v e m b e r 1 0 th , a c c o r d i n g t o th e 6: 3 0 p . m . m es s a g e ,

01:23:58PM

4

be c a u s e , a s y o u c a n s e e b e l o w , " D e fe n s e i s t a ki n g n o t e o f

01:24:05PM

5

th e ca pt ur e da te s. "

01:24:07PM

6

A.

01:24:10PM

7

fo ll ow in g up wi th me , bu t th at ap pe ar s to be th e fi rs t

01:24:12PM

8

ti me th at he co nt ac te d me in th is ch ai n of em ai l

01:24:15PM

9

communications.

01:24:15PM

10

Q.

01:24:18PM

11

ob ta in in g a sc re en sh ot of th e ho me pa ge ?

01:24:21PM

12

01:24:22PM

13

A. Q.

01:24:27PM

14

t im e t o ge t a co py of th e sc re en -- of th e ho me pa ge , i s

01:24:30PM

15

th at co rr ec t, to th e be st of yo ur re co ll ec ti on?

01:24:31PM

16

A.

To th e be st of my re co ll ec ti on , ye s.

01:24:33PM

17

Q.

An d he is do in g th at , he in di ca te s, be ca us e "D ef en se

01:24:36PM

18

is ta ki ng no te of th e ca pt ur e da te s" ?

01:24:40PM

19

A.

Ye s, he say s th at in his ema

01:24:42PM

20

Q.

An d wh en we re fe r to the

01:24:46PM

21

ta lk in g ab ou t th e da te th at pa rt ic ul ar ho me pa ge or im ag e

01:24:50PM

22

w a s a c t u a l ly p o s t e d o r a p p ea r e d , c o r r e c t ?

01:24:52PM

23

A.

01:24:54PM

24

pr o v i d e d t o d e f e n s e i n e a r l i e r d i s c o v e r y r e v i e w s.

01:24:58PM

25

An d Age n t

au tz wa s fol lo wi ng up wi th yo u on

Do yo u se e th at co mm un ic at io n?

Ju st to cl ar if y, yo u sa id th at Ag e nt

Ok ay .

au tz wa s

Ha d he co nt ac te d yo u pr ev io us ly ab ou t

No t tha t I re ca ll . So at th is poi nt he is con ta ct in g yo u fo r th e fi rs t

il .

ca pt ur e da te s, we ar e

I as su me he wa s re fe rr in g to ma te ri al th at wa s

R. F IE MA N :

Th an k yo u ve ry m uc h.

No f ur th er


97

que sti ons , you r Hon or.

01:25:00PM

1

01:25:00PM

2

01:25:06PM

3

01:25:21PM

4

01:25:23PM

5

ad mi ss io n of so me ex hi bi ts ju st to cl ar if y th e re co rd, we

01:25:26PM

6

do n' t ha ve ot he r wi tn es se s to pr es en t, un le ss yo ur Ho no r

01:25:28PM

7

ha s fu rt he r qu es ti on s to be ad dr es se d.

01:25:29PM

8

01:25:31PM

9

01:25:33PM

10

01:25:35PM

11

01:25:36PM

12

01:25:39PM

13

01:25:39PM

14

01:25:50PM

15

01:25:52PM

16

re co rd , fi rs t we wo ul d of fe r Ex hi bi ts 1 th ro ug h 9 on ou r

01:25:57PM

17

ex hi bi t li st .

01:26:01PM

18

an ex hi bi t t o ou r pr ev io us fi li ng s.

01:26:05PM

19

so for co mp le ti on of th e re co rd .

01:26:08PM

20

01:26:09PM

21

01:26:15PM

22

01:26:15PM

23

01:26:17PM

24

of th e fo ll ow in g:

01:26:26PM

25

un de r se al be ca us e of co nt ra ba nd , 15 , 15 A, 15 B.

T H E C O U R T:

Thank you, Agent Alfin.

You may be

excused. R. BEC KE R :

T H E C O U R T:

Yo ur Hon o r, oth er tha n to ask the

N o , I d o n ' t.

R. FIE MA N:

No obj ec ti on , yo ur Hon or , to

ad mi ss io n of ev er yt hi ng th at ha s be en of fe re d. TH E CO UR T:

Wh at n ow ?

R. FIE MA N:

No obj ec ti on to th e ad mi ss io n of

eve ryt hin g tha t has bee n off ere d. TH E CO UR T:

I do n' t kn ow wh at h as be en of fe re d .

R. BE CK ER :

Yo ur Ho no r, fo r pu rp os es of th e

Ea ch on e of th os e ex hi bi ts is att ac he d as

R. FIE MA N: TH E COU RT :

I ju st wa nt e d to do

No obj ec ti on , yo ur Hon or . Th ey ma y be ad mi tt ed .

(E xh ib it No s. 1 - 9 we re ad mi tt ed .) R. BE CK ER :

An d we wo ul d m ov e fo r th e ad mi ss io n

12 A, 12 B , 1 3A , 13 B, wh ic h we wo ul d as k At thi s


98

01:26:42PM

1

ti me we wo ul d mo ve fo r th e ad mi ss io n of th os e fo r th e

01:26:44PM

2

record.

01:26:46PM

3

01:26:47PM

4

w e s h o u l d a l s o m o v e i n 14 , w h i c h i s t h e s a m e a s D e f e n s e

01:26:52PM

5

E xh ib it A 15 an d A1 6.

01:26:56PM

6

al l of th os e --

01:26:56PM

7

01:27:03PM

8

01:27:04PM

9

01:27:05PM

10

01:27:07PM

11

01:27:13PM

12

01:27:13PM

13

01:27:21PM

14

Ex hi bi ts 1 th ro ug h 5 ar e al l do cu me nt s th at ar e cu rr en tl y

01:27:24PM

15

un de r se al .

01:27:26PM

16

wi t h t he d e f e n s e i n o r d er to w o r k o u t t h o s e i s s u es , w h i c h

01:27:29PM

17

we will.

01:27:29PM

18

01:27:31PM

19

01:27:33PM

20

01:27:34PM

21

01:27:41PM

22

01:27:43PM

23 24

01:28:11PM

25

R. FI EM AN :

T H E CO U R T:

Yo ur Ho no r, I ha ve no o bj ec ti on .

I wo ul d mo ve fo r th e ad mi ss io n o f

W h a t n u m b e r s no w ?


A 15 a n d A 1 6 ?

Ye s, yo ur Ho no r . Do yo u ha ve an y ob je ct io n to th os e ?


B ut

No , yo ur Ho no r. Al l of tho se exh ib it s ma y be adm it te d.

(E xh ib it No s. A1 5 & A1 6 we re ad mi tt ed .) R. BEC KE R:

On e ot he r is su e, you r Ho no r.

We ha ve n' t ha d an op po rt un it y to co nf er en ce

TH E CO UR T:

Th ey sho ul d re ma in und er sea l un ti l we

res olv e tha t iss ue. R. BE C K ER :

That would be our request.

We will

co nf er on th at is su e. R. FIE MA N:

Yo ur Hon or , if the gov er nm en t is

co mp le te, we wo ul d ca ll Dr. Ch ri s So gh oi an . CHRIS SOGHO IAN Ha vi ng be en sw or n un de r oa th , te st if ie d as fo ll ow s:


99

DIRECT EXAMIN ATION

01:28:11PM

1

01:28:13PM

2

By

r. Fieman:

01:28:14PM

3

Q.

Dr . So gh oi an, ple as e sp el l yo ur name

01:28:16PM

4

A.

Sure.

01:28:20PM

5

C-H-R- I-S-T- O-P-H- E-R, Sogho ian, S-O-G- H-O-I- A-N.

01:28:28PM

6

Q.

An d wh er e do yo u wo rk ?

01:28:30PM

7

A.

I am th e pr in ci pa l te ch no lo gi st for

01:28:34PM

8

Pr iv ac y an d Te ch no lo gy Pr oj ec t at th e Am er ic an Ci vi l

01:28:38PM

9

Li be rt ie s Un io n.

01:28:40PM

10

vol unt eer ing her e in my per son al cap aci ty.

01:28:43PM

11

Q.

01:28:47PM

12

th is ca se so me ti me ag o, co rr ec t?

01:28:48PM

13

A. That's correc t.

01:28:48PM

14

Q.

An d ar e yo u be in g pa id fo r yo ur as si st an ce ?

01:28:51PM

15

A.

I am be in g re im bu rs ed fo r my fl ig ht s, an d my ho te l,

01:28:54PM

16

an d a pe r di em fo r fo od , b ut th at 's it .

01:28:56PM

17

Q.

Wha t is your train ing and quali fic ati ons?

01:28:58PM

18

A.

I ha ve a ba ch el or 's de gr ee in co mp ut er scie nc e fr om

01:29:02PM

19

Ja me s

01:29:06PM

20

co mp ut er secu ri ty from Joh ns Ho pk in s Un iv er si ty .

01:29:10PM

21

Ph .D . in in fo rm at ic s, wh ic h is li ke a mi x of co mp ut er

01:29:14PM

22

sc ie nc e an d la w, fr om In di an a Un iv er si ty .

01:29:17PM

23

sp ec ia li ze d th er e in st ud yi ng the ro le th at th e te le ph on e

01:29:22PM

24

com pan ies pla y in ena bli ng gov ern men t sur vei lla nce .

01:29:24PM

25

Q.

fo r th e re co rd .

y n ame i s C hristopher S oghoian.

Co rr ec t.

That i s

th e Sp ee ch

Al th ou gh I sh ou ld clar if y, I am actu al ly

We re ta in ed yo u as a te ch no lo gy ex pe rt in

ad is on Un iv er si ty .

I ha ve a ma st er 's de gr ee in I ha ve a

An d I

An d ha ve yo u te st if ie d in ot he r co ur t pr oc ee di ng s?


100

01:29:27PM

1

A.

01:29:31PM

2

ac te d as a de fe ns e ex pe rt fo r th e pu bl ic de fe nd er in

01:29:34PM

3

S po ka ne , Wa sh in gt on .

01:29:38PM

4

b i t o f e x p e r i e n c e i n t r ai n i n g j u d g e s a n d e x p l a i n i n g t h i n g s

01:29:41PM

5

to jud ge s .

01:29:45PM

6

Fe de ra l Ju di ci al Ce nt er in Wa sh in gt on , D. C. la st ye ar,

01:29:48PM

7

ex pl ai ni ng su rv ei ll an ce te ch no lo gy to ju dg es .

01:29:51PM

8

sp ok e to 60 Ar ti cl e II I ju dg es la st ye ar at an ev en t

01:29:56PM

9

org ani zed by Geo rge tow n Law Sch ool .

01:29:59PM

10

Q.

01:30:02PM

11

ev er yt hi ng .

01:30:05PM

12

co mm it te e on th e Fe de ra l Ru le s of Cr im in al Pr oc ed ur e?

01:30:07PM

13

A.

I hav e, ye s, si r.

01:30:09PM

14

Q.

An d wh en di d yo u do th at ?

01:30:10PM

15

A.

I th in k th at wa s in th e fa ll of 20 14 .

01:30:14PM

16

Q.

An d ha ve yo u ev er had

01:30:17PM

17

wo r k c it e d by a c o u r t ?

01:30:19PM

18

A.

01:30:24PM

19

se ve ra l fe de ra l co ur ts , in cl ud ing th e di ss en t by th e Ch ie f

01:30:28PM

20

Ju dg e of the Ni nt h Ci rc ui t, Al ex Ko zi ns ki .

01:30:32PM

21

ha s al so be en ci te d by th e st at e su pr em e co ur t of

01:30:35PM

22

N e w Je r s e y an d t h e s t a t e s u pr e m e c o u r t o f

01:30:37PM

23

Q.

01:30:41PM

24

th e dis co ve ry an d mat er ia ls th at re la te to

01:30:46PM

25

case?

Th is is my fi rs t ap pe ar an ce in co ur t, bu t I ha ve

I ha ve al so -- I al so ha ve qu it e a

I ap pe ar e d a t a n ev en t or ga ni ze d by th e

Sl ow dow n a li tt le bi t so the

Ye s.

I al so

co ur t re po rt er can

ge t

Yo u ha ve al so te st if ie d be fo re th e ad vi so ry

yo ur pu bl ic at io ns or scho la rl y

y re se ar ch a nd s ch ol ar s hi p ha s be en c it ed b y

y re se ar ch

as s a c h u s e t t s .

No w, as a co ns ul ta nt in th is ca se , ha ve yo u re vi ew ed r.

ic ha ud 's


101

01:30:46PM

1

A.

01:30:49PM

2

yes.

01:30:49PM

3

Q.

01:30:52PM

4

application?

01:30:53PM

5

A.

I ha ve re vi ew ed th e NI T wa rr an t ap pl ic at io n, ye s.

01:30:56PM

6

Q.

Le t me jus t cu t t o t he ch as e.

01:30:58PM

7

e xp la in t o t he ju dg e w ha t a n NI T is an d ho w i t wo r ks ?

01:31:01PM

8

A.

01:31:02PM

9

01:31:03PM

10

01:31:05PM

11

01:31:06PM

12

01:31:07PM

13

01:31:12PM

14

01:31:15PM

15

sp ec ul at io n, yo ur Ho no r.

01:31:17PM

16

an al ys is of a ne tw or k in ve st ig at iv e te ch ni qu e in th is

01:31:20PM

17

c as e, i. e ., th e NI T in th is c as e --

01:31:23PM

18

01:31:24PM

19

appropriate.

01:31:25PM

20

By

r. Fieman:

01:31:25PM

21

Q.

Dr . So gh oi an, in

01:31:29PM

22

di sc ov er y, ha ve yo u, fo r ex am pl e, re vi ew ed al l of th e

01:31:33PM

23

go ve rn me nt 's de sc ri pt io ns of th e NI T th at wa s de pl oy ed in

01:31:38PM

24

thi s cas e?

01:31:39PM

25

A.

I ha ve re vi ew ed al l do cu me nt s yo u ha ve sen t to me ,

Di d th at , fo r ex am pl e, in cl ud e th e NIT war ra nt

Wo u ld yo u ple as e

Sure. R. BE CK ER : T H E CO U R T:

Ob je ct io n, yo ur Hon or . Wait a minute.

I d i d n ' t ge t th e

question. R. FI EM AN :

I as ke d hi m to ex pl ai n to th e co ur t

wh a t an N IT i s a n d h o w d o e s i t w o r k . R. BE CK ER :

TH E CO UR T:

I wo ul d ob je c t to th e fo un da ti on an d If th is isn 't ba se d on an y

A li tt le mor e fo un da ti on is

th e co ur se of re vi ew in g th e

I ha ve rea d th e de sc ri pt io n of the NIT

in thi s


102

01:31:42PM

1

wa r r a n t , a n d I h a v e a l s o r e ad t h e d e s c r i p t i o n o f th e NI T

01:31:44PM

2

in ev er y pu bl ic NI T ap pl ic at io n th at is av ai la bl e -- th at

01:31:49PM

3

ha s be co me av ai la bl e ov er th e la st fi ve or si x ye ar s.

01:31:52PM

4

Q.

01:31:57PM

5

ar t.

01:32:01PM

6

of co de or te ch ni qu e; is th at co rr ec t?

01:32:02PM

7

A.

01:32:06PM

8

In the co mp ut er se cu ri ty co mm un it y, wh ic h I am pa rt of ,

01:32:09PM

9

th is is ge ne ra ll y de sc ri be d as ma lw ar e or ma li ci ou s

01:32:13PM

10

software.

01:32:13PM

11

Q.

01:32:18PM

12

it as ma lw ar e?

01:32:20PM

13

01:32:23PM

14

th e ch ar ac te ri za ti on , yo ur Hono r.

01:32:25PM

15

ab ou t re vi ew of an yt hi ng th at ac tu al ly ha pp en ed in th is

01:32:27PM

16

c as e, the NIT in

01:32:31PM

17

the wit nes s' opi nio n and cha rac ter iza tio ns of how thi ngs

01:32:35PM

18

ca n be la be le d.

01:32:39PM

19

pe r t i n e n c e to t h e i s s u e s th e c ou r t h a s t o d e c i d e he r e .

01:32:41PM

20

th e wi tn es s ha s ex am in ed so me th in g th at wa s us ed in th is

01:32:44PM

21

ca se , as op po se d to re ad in g th e do cu me nt s, I mi gh t no t

01:32:48PM

22

object.

01:32:48PM

23

01:32:51PM

24

Ob vi ou sl y, it ne ed s to be ti ed up wi th th e ev id en ce in

01:32:55PM

25

thi s cas e.

Wh en you tal k ab ou t NI T, tha t is a ki nd o f te rm of It ref er s in the

te ch no lo gy wor ld to a sp ec if ic typ e

Th e go ve rn me nt de sc ri be s th is te ch no lo gy as a NI T.

Ca n yo u ex pl ai n wh at th os e ar e an d wh y yo u de sc ri be

R. BE CK ER :

Ob je ct io n, ag ai n, to th e re le va nc e of

th is cas e.

We are

no t ta lk in g

W e a re tal ki n g no w ba se d on

I do n' t s ee ho w th is ha s an y we ig ht or

TH E CO UR T:

I ta ke th is t o b e pr el im in ar y.


If

103

01:32:56PM

1

By

r. Fieman:

01:32:56PM

2

Q.

Le t' s us e th e wor d N IT .

01:33:00PM

3

the tec hno log y and cyb ers ecu rit y wor ld?

01:33:03PM

4

A.

01:33:09PM

5

no w kn ow to be NI Ts fo r se ve ra l y ea rs .

01:33:12PM

6

th ey ca ll ed th em NI Ts un ti l we fo un d on e of th e wa rr an t

01:33:17PM

7

ap pl ic at io ns a co up le of ye ar s ag o.

01:33:19PM

8

cat ego ry of tec hno log y --

01:33:21PM

9

01:33:24PM

10

go ve rn me nt ag en cy in th e wo rl d th at se ek s to us e

01:33:28PM

11

in ve st ig at iv e te ch ni qu es of th is ki nd .

01:33:31PM

12

go ve rn me nt s ar ou nd th e wo rl d th at us e te ch ni qu es li ke

01:33:33PM

13

th is, and th er e ar e ma ny co mp an ie s th at cr ea te

01:33:36PM

14

spe cia l-pu rpo se tec hno log y lik e thi s for the se

01:33:40PM

15

gov ern men ts.

01:33:42PM

16

th ey ad ve rt is e th ei r fe at ur es, th ey de sc ri be it in qu it e

01:33:45PM

17

extens ive detail .

01:33:46PM

18

01:33:49PM

19

of te ch no lo gy fo r a nu mb er of ye ar s, an d I ca n de sc ri be ,

01:33:53PM

20

ag ai n, in ge ne ra l te rm s, how it

01:33:57PM

21

W i t h i n t h e cl a s s o f w h a t th e g o v e rn m e n t c a l l s N I T s , t h e r e

01:34:00PM

22

m i g h t b e d i f f e r e n t k i n d s o f NI T s .

01:34:03PM

23

ve ry sm al l su bs et of th in gs , so me mi gh t do mo re th ing s.

01:34:06PM

24

Bu t I ca n te ll yo u ge ne ra ll y ho w th es e th in gs wo rk .

01:34:09PM

25

Th e re as on th at peo pl e in th e co mp ut er se cu ri ty

Do es NI T ha ve a me an in g in

I ha ve be en st ud yi ng th e go ve rn me nt 's us e of wh at we We di d no t kn ow

Bu t th is ge ne ra l

Le t me pa us e an d s ay th e FB I is no t th e on ly

Th er e ar e ma ny

The se compa nie s adv ert ise thes e pro duc ts,

A nd s o I h a v e b e e n r e s e a r c h i n g t h i s g e n e r a l c a t e g o r y

wo rk s.

Th er e ar e --

Some NITs might do a


104

01:34:12PM

1

co mm un it y de sc ri be th is as ma lw ar e is th at --

Co mp ut er s

01:34:15PM

2

are bui lt wit h cyb ers ecu rit y pro tec tio ns wit hin the m.

01:34:18PM

3

Wh e n y ou a r e b r o w s i n g a r ou n d on th e i n t e r n e t , an d y ou

01:34:21PM

4

vis it a web sit e, und er nor mal cir cum sta nce s tha t web sit e

01:34:24PM

5

is on ly al lo we d to ge t yo ur co mp ut er to do ce rt ai n th in gs .

01:34:29PM

6

01:34:32PM

7

01:34:36PM

8

01:34:40PM

9

01:34:44PM

10

r es ea rc hi ng --

01:34:46PM

11

P ro je ct .

01:34:49PM

12

co nf er en ce s -- th e sa me ac ad em ic co nf er en ce s th at I do .

01:34:53PM

13

Th is is a te n- ye ar -o ld pr oj ec t th at ha s re ce iv ed mi ll io ns

01:34:55PM

14

of do ll ar s of re se ar ch fu nd s to bu il d a ve ry se cu re pi ec e

01:34:59PM

15

of so ft wa re th at ha s on e pr im ar y pu rp os e, wh ic h is to hi de

01:35:02PM

16

th e id en ti ty of pe op le us in g it .

01:35:05PM

17

Q.

18

net wor k, in gen era l, cor rec t?

19

A.

Yes.

01:35:09PM

20

Q.

Le t' s sto p the re .

01:35:13PM

21

a co ns id er ab le pe ri od of ti me , yo u ha ve do ne re se ar ch on

01:35:16PM

22

it , an d yo u ha ve al so re vi ew ed al l of th e di sc ov er y in

01:35:18PM

23

thi s cas e, cor rec t?

01:35:19PM

24

A. That's correc t.

01:35:19PM

25

Q.

al ic io us so ft wa re , kn ow n as ma lw ar e, tr ie s to ge t yo ur co mp ut er to do th in gs th at it wo ul d no t or di na ri ly do . A nd i n t h e c a s e o f t h i s To r s o f t w a r e t h a t we ar e d is cu ss in g he re in th is ca se - -

I ha ve bee n

I kn o w th e pe op le wh o ar e be hi nd t he T or

Th ey ar e aca de mi cs .

Le t' s sl ow do wn .

No w, yo u ha ve also

Th ey go to th e sam e

No w yo u ar e ta lk in g ab ou t th e To r

So yo u hav e be en st ud yi ng NI Ts fo r

se en th e va ri ou s pl ea di ng s th at


105

01:35:22PM

1

th e go ve rn me nt ha s fi le d wh er e th ey de sc ri be the NI T as

01:35:27PM

2

se iz in g in fo rm at io n fro m

01:35:29PM

3

A.

I ha ve rea d th at , ye s, sir .

01:35:30PM

4

Q.

Ca n yo u ju st de sc ri be fo r th e ju dg e th e pr oc es s of

01:35:34PM

5

ho w a NI T go es ab ou t do in g th at , in ge ne ra l la ym an 's

01:35:38PM

6

ter ms, wit hou t get tin g int o any tec hni cal fea tur es, jus t

01:35:43PM

7

in a br ea d-a nd -b ut te r wa y ho w do es th at wo rk ?

01:35:45PM

8

01:35:48PM

9

01:35:51PM

10

in te rp re ta ti on of th e wo rd s an d wa rr an ts in di sc ov er y.

01:35:55PM

11

is no t ba se d on an y ac tu al an al ys is of an yt hi ng in th is

01:35:58PM

12

c as e.

01:36:00PM

13

in de te rm in in g an y of th e is su es he re .

01:36:03PM

14

dis clo sur e of cer tai n tec hni cal inf orm ati on abo ut the

01:36:06PM

15

ne tw or k in ve st ig at iv e te ch ni qu e.

01:36:10PM

16

wi t n e s s h as r e v i e w e d , t h e n f i n e .

01:36:13PM

17

ju st ta lk in g ab ou t lo ok in g at th e le ga l do cu me nt s.

01:36:17PM

18

wi t n e s s ' o p i n i o n a b o ut w h a t l e g a l t e r m s m e a n - - o r w h a t

01:36:20PM

19

te rm s in le ga l do cu me nt s me an , ag ai n, I th in k th is is

01:36:24PM

20

ir re le va nt in fo rm at io n th at do es no th in g in or de r to

01:36:26PM

21

il lu mi na te an y of th e is su es be fo re th e co ur t.

01:36:28PM

22

01:36:31PM

23

w e ig h t t o b e a t t a c h e d .

01:36:35PM

24

By

r. Fieman:

01:36:35PM

25

Q.

Le t' s ta ke up tha t o bj ec ti on fo r a mo me nt .

R. BE CK ER :

r.

ic ha ud 's co mp ut er ?

Ob je ct io n , yo ur Ho no r.

m y o b j e c t i o n , y o u r H o n o r.

I wo ul d re n ew

T h i s is a l a y w i t n e s s' It

Th is is te st im on y th a t is of no va lu e to th is c ou rt

TH E CO UR T:

We ha ve ma de

If th at 's wh at th e But right now we are Th is

I th in k yo ur obj ec ti on go es to the Go ahead.

Ha ve yo u


106

01:36:37PM

1

co ns ul te d wi th an ot he r ex pe rt re ta in ed by th e de fe ns e

01:36:40PM

2

cal led Vla d Cir kov ic?

01:36:44PM

3

A.

I ha ve sp ok en to Vla d.

01:36:46PM

4

Q.

Yo u ar e aw ar e th at we ha d ac tu al ly re qu es te d fr om th e

01:36:48PM

5

go ve rn me nt th e en ti re NI T co de , so yo u co ul d do ex ac tl y

01:36:52PM

6

th e ty pe of an al ys is t ha t

01:36:55PM

7

done?

01:36:56PM

8

A.

01:36:59PM

9

would know a lot more than we know right now.

01:37:01PM

10

Q.

01:37:07PM

11

as to th e li mi te d co de th at ha s be en tu rn ed ov er by th e

01:37:09PM

12

go ve rn me nt , an d yo ur ex te ns iv e te n ye ar s of re se ar ch in to

01:37:12PM

13

NI T s a nd t e c h n o l o g y , ha v e y ou f o r m e d a n e d u c a t e d op i n i o n

01:37:16PM

14

ab ou t ho w bo th NI Ts in ge ne ra l an d th is NI T wo rk ed ?

01:37:20PM

15

A.

01:37:24PM

16

in ge ne ra l.

01:37:26PM

17

Vl a d h as p r e p a r e d , a n d t a l k i n g a n d e x c h a n g i n g e ma i l s w i th

01:37:29PM

18

hi m , I th in k I ha ve a go od id ea o f wh at ha pp en ed h er e.

01:37:33PM

19

Q.

01:37:35PM

20

of you r kno wle dge ?

01:37:35PM

21

A.

01:37:40PM

22

pr o g r a m m e d to h a v e a ce r t a i n b as i c l e v e l o f c y b e r s e c u ri t y .

01:37:45PM

23

Th ey on ly wi ll al lo w we bs it es to in st ru ct th em to do a

01:37:48PM

24

li mi te d su bs et of th in gs .

01:37:52PM

25

p e o p l e w h o w er e u s i n g t he T or b r o w s e r , a n d s o i t i s

r. Be ck er sa ys yo u ha ve not

It is tr ue th at i f w e ha d th e co mp le te co de , th at we

Bu t ba se d up on you r co ns ul ta ti on s wi th

r. Cir ko vi c

I th in k I ha ve a pr et ty goo d id ea o f h ow NIT s wo rk , An d th en in bo t h by re ad in g th e re po rt th at

Ca n yo u ju st de sc ri be tha t to the

ju dg e, to th e be st

As I wa s so rt of ex pl ai ni ng be fo re , co mp ut er s ar e

Th e NI T in th is ca se tar ge te d


107

01:37:55PM

1

ne ce ss ar y ju st fo r th is mo me nt to sa y th at th e To r br ow se r

01:37:59PM

2

is pr og ra mm ed to pr ot ec t ev en mo re in fo rm at io n th an yo ur

01:38:02PM

3

nor mal web bro wse r wou ld pro tec t.

01:38:05PM

4

Q.

01:38:08PM

5

an d y ou ar e wo rk in g on th e To r ne tw or k, it is li ke yo u

01:38:10PM

6

ha ve ad de d fi re wa ll s or se cu ri ty pr ov is io ns in yo ur

01:38:14PM

7

co mp ut er to pr ot ec t yo ur pr iv ac y; is th at co rr ec t?

01:38:16PM

8

A.

01:38:19PM

9

pr o t e c t i o n s , b u t i n f a c t t h ey s l o w d o w n y o u r e x p e r i e n c e .

01:38:22PM

10

So pe op le wh o ar e us in g To r ar e ex pe ri en ci ng a le ss ri ch ,

01:38:26PM

11

le ss fa st in te rn et , in ex ch an ge fo r th es e ad di ti on al

01:38:30PM

12

pr o t e c t i o n s , w h i c h p r o t e c t t h e i r p r i v a c y , b ot h i n f or m a t i o n

01:38:33PM

13

ab ou t wh er e th ey ar e go in g and in fo rm at io n ab ou t -- an d

01:38:37PM

14

als o pro tec tin g inf orm ati on abo ut the web sit es the mse lve s.

01:38:40PM

15

Q.

01:38:45PM

16

t hi s ca se it wou ld be

01:38:47PM

17

A.

01:38:51PM

18

th e To r so ft wa re , an d it ha s be en sp ec ia ll y co nf ig ur ed to

01:38:54PM

19

pr o t e c t i ts e l f f r o m t h i n g s t h a t we b s i t e s m i g ht t r y a n d d o

01:38:58PM

20

to fo rc e it to re ve al id en ti fy in g in fo rm at io n, li ke an IP

01:39:02PM

21

address.

01:39:02PM

22

Q.

01:39:06PM

23

pr o c e s s ?

01:39:07PM

24

A.

01:39:14PM

25

pr o t e c t i n g c om p o n e n t s .

Le t' s ju st st op th er e.

Ye s.

So if yo u ha ve a To r br ow se r,

An d not on ly do yo u hav e the se ad di ti on al

An d th os e pr ot ec ti on s ar e on the

Ye s.

Th er e is a

Wh en you

r.

us er' s co mp ut er ; in

ic ha ud 's co mp ut er , co rr ec t?

sp ec ia l web br ow se r th at ru ns wi th in

sa y "f or ce it to rev ea l, " wh at is tha t

So th e To r so ft wa re ha s so rt of tw o se pa ra te pr iv ac y The first is the Tor network


108

01:39:18PM

1

it se lf .

Th er e is a di ag ra m in th e bo ok tha t th e

01:39:22PM

2

pr o s e c u t i o n p r o v i d e d th a t s o r t o f s h o w s h o w t h i n gs g o

01:39:25PM

3

th ro ug h th e To r ne tw or k.

01:39:29PM

4

co mp ut er co nt ac ti ng th e we bs it e th at yo u ar e vi si ti ng,

01:39:31PM

5

wi t h T or y o u r c o m p u t er b o u n c e s t h e c o n n e c t i o n t h r ou g h a

01:39:34PM

6

b u n c h o f s e r v e r s a l o ng t h e w a y.

01:39:36PM

7

01:39:38PM

8

in st ea d of pa ss in g a no te di re ct ly to th e ju dg e, I wo ul d

01:39:41PM

9

in st ea d pa ss a no te to th e la wy er ov er th er e, an d th en th e

01:39:45PM

10

la wy er ov er th er e wo ul d pa ss th e no te to so me on e el se in

01:39:46PM

11

th e ba ck , an d th en eve nt ua ll y it wou ld rea ch you .

01:39:49PM

12

th er e in th e en d, bu t it mi gh t ta ke a bi t mo re ti me to ge t

01:39:52PM

13

th er e be ca us e of al l th es e pe op le pa ss in g it al on g.

01:39:54PM

14

is on e of th e pr iv ac y pr es er vi ng fe at ur es in To r, wh ic h is

01:39:58PM

15

th at it hi de s th e tr ai l th ro ug h th e us e of th es e se rv er s.

01:40:02PM

16

01:40:06PM

17

It is ac tu al ly a va ri an t of Fi re fo x, wh ic h is a ve ry

01:40:08PM

18

po p u l a r p ie c e o f w e b b r ow s i n g s o f t w a r e t h a t h a s b e e n --

19

Q.

Sl ow it dow n a lit tl e.

01:40:13PM

20

A.

So rr y.

01:40:17PM

21

th e Fi re fo x we b br ow se r th at ha s be en mo di fi ed to be ev en

01:40:22PM

22

mo r e s e c ur e .

01:40:23PM

23

01:40:26PM

24

Th er e are so me fe at ur es th at ma ke we bs it es mo re

01:40:29PM

25

in te ra ct iv e, th at al lo w you to ha ve ri ch me di a, vi de o,

Bu t, ge ne ra ll y, in st ea d of yo ur

A nd t h e p u r p o s e o f t h a t is to h i d e t he t r ai l .

Se co nd ly , th e To r br ow se r --

So

It get s

Th at

It is a w eb br ow se r --

So th er e is a sp ec ia l cu st om iz ed ve rs io n of

Ess ent ial ly the re are tra deo ffs on the int ern et.


109

01:40:32PM

1

so un d, an im me rs iv e ex pe ri en ce .

Bu t th os e fu tu re s can

01:40:36PM

2

al so be ex pl oi te d by ma li ci ou s pa rt ie s to le ar n pr iv at e

01:40:41PM

3

inf orm ati on abo ut you .

01:40:42PM

4

Q.

01:40:45PM

5

th ei r in te nt io ns , bu t yo u ar e ta lk in g in co de se ns e in

01:40:48PM

6

te rm s of th ey ar e tr yi ng to ge t yo ur co mp ut er to do th in gs

01:40:50PM

7

th at yo u wo ul d no t ot he rw is e do ?

01:40:52PM

8

A.

01:40:58PM

9

co mp ut er se cu ri ty co mm un it y.

01:41:01PM

10

me a n s o m e o ne t h a t i s t r y i n g t o d o s o m e t h i ng w i t h o u t t h e

01:41:02PM

11

kn ow le dg e or co ns en t of th e co mp ut er of th e pe rs on th at it

01:41:05PM

12

is be in g do ne to .

01:41:07PM

13

01:41:10PM

14

tu rn of f ma ny fe at ur es th at re gu la r we b br ow se rs ha ve

01:41:15PM

15

en ab le d.

01:41:19PM

16

th e nu mb er of wa ys th at a we bs it e mi gh t tr y an d le ar n

01:41:22PM

17

pr i v a t e i nf o r m a t i o n a b o ut t he p e r s o n u s i n g t he T o r

01:41:24PM

18

software.

01:41:25PM

19

Q.

01:41:27PM

20

th e pe rs on , th e us er , at th ei r co mp ut er , is no t ot he rw is e

01:41:30PM

21

tr an sm it ti ng or wa nt in g to ma ke pu bl ic ; is th at co rr ec t?

01:41:33PM

22

A.

01:41:37PM

23

an yw ay .

01:41:41PM

24

co mp ut er wi th ou t yo ur kn ow le dg e or co ns en t to be gi n wi th.

01:41:44PM

25

Th e To r br ow se r tr an sm it s le ss in fo rm at io n to we bs it es

Wh en yo u sa y "m al ic io us pa rt ie s, " yo u don 't me an

I ' m s o r r y.

" a l i c i o u s " i s a te r m o f a r t i n t h e Wh en we sa y "m al ic io us ," we

A nd s o t h e T o r b r o w s e r h a s be e n s p e c ia l l y m o di f i e d t o

An d by tu rn in g th es e fe at ur es of f, it re du ce s

Wh en yo u sa y it is pr iv at e, it is in fo rm at io n th at

Wel l, reg ula r peo ple don't trans

mit this inform

ati on

Th is is st uf f th at is bei ng tr an sm it te d by you r


110

01:41:47PM

1

th an a no rm al we bs it e -- th an a no rm al we b br ow se r

01:41:51PM

2

transmits.

01:41:52PM

3

01:41:54PM

4

re fu se re qu es ts by we bs it es to re ve al in fo rm at io n th at a

01:41:58PM

5

nor mal web bro wse r wou ld oth erw ise rev eal .

01:42:01PM

6

Q.

01:42:04PM

7

the dis cov ery , you r con sul tat ion, Age nt Alf in' s tes tim ony

01:42:07PM

8

to da y ab ou t th e NI T an d ho w it wo rk ed , ca n yo u ju st

01:42:10PM

9

e xp la in to t he ju dg e --

01:42:13PM

10

cl ar if y is th e lo ca ti on s at wh ic h va ri ou s th in gs ha pp en ed .

01:42:18PM

11

Ca n yo u do th at st ep -b y- st ep fr om wh er e th e NI T is fi rs t

01:42:22PM

12

pr o g r a m m e d t hr o u g h t h e c a p t u r e o f d a t a ?

01:42:25PM

13

A.

I wi ll do th e be st th at I ca n .

01:42:27PM

14

Q.

An d go sl ow ly .

01:42:28PM

15

A.

Re me mb er , th er e is on e bi g pi ec e th at we do n' t kn ow

01:42:31PM

16

th e an sw er to , wh er e we do n' t ha ve so me of th e co de th at

01:42:34PM

17

th e go ve rn me nt ha sn 't tu rn ed ov er .

01:42:36PM

18

w e d o h a v e , w h e n s o m e o n e b r ow s e s t o a w e b s i t e u s i n g t h e

01:42:42PM

19

To r br ow se r, th ei r co mp ut er re qu es ts a pa ge .

01:42:47PM

20

ar e us in g th e To r br ow se r, yo ur co mp ut er as ks a we bs it e,

01:42:50PM

21

"P le as e gi ve me th is pa ge ."

01:42:54PM

22

it av ai la bl e an d yo ur br ow se r wi ll th en go an d ta ke it an d

01:42:58PM

23

b r i n g i t b a c k t o y o u r c o m p u t e r.

01:43:01PM

24

01:43:05PM

25

A nd t h e n i n a d d i ti o n to t h at , t h e T o r b r o ws e r w i l l

So th at is bac kg ro un d.

No w, ba se d on yo ur re vi ew of

A nd rea ll y wh at we wa nt to

Wi th th e pi ec es th at

So if you

Th at web si te wi ll th en mak e

In so me ca se s th at we b pa ge wi ll co nt ai n te xt , an d so th e te xt wi ll be di sp la ye d.

I n so m e ca se s th er e w il l be


111

01:43:08PM

1

im ag es , an d th e im ag es wi ll be dis pl ay ed .

In so me cas es

01:43:11PM

2

the re is com put er pro gra mmi ng con tai ned wit hin tha t

01:43:14PM

3

we b s i t e , a n d i t w i l l c a u s e y o u r co m p u t e r t o do s o m e a c t i o n

01:43:17PM

4

b e f o r e a d d i t i o n a l t e xt m i gh t be d is p l a y e d .

01:43:20PM

5

Q.

01:43:25PM

6

th e ba ck gr ou nd , ca n yo u ju st cl ar if y wh at th at me an s in

01:43:29PM

7

te rm s of wh at is be in g re ce iv ed on th e co mp ut er in

01:43:32PM

8

Wa s h i n g t o n ?

01:43:33PM

9

A.

01:43:40PM

10

p u b l i c, t he w e b b r o w s e r - - t h e T o r w e b b r o ws e r in t h i s

01:43:46PM

11

cas e wou ld hav e req ues ted inf orm ati on abo ut a par tic ula r

01:43:49PM

12

pa g e on t h i s f o r u m , o n e o f t h e s e t h r e a d s .

01:43:52PM

13

Q.

So the home pa ge of th is webs it e?

01:43:58PM

14

A.

Th e de fe nd an t wo ul d ha ve lo gg ed in -- is al le ge d to

01:44:01PM

15

ha ve lo gg ed in to th e ho me pa ge , en te re d a us er na me an d

01:44:05PM

16

pa s s w o r d .

01:44:08PM

17

on e of the se for um s.

01:44:12PM

18

is ha pp en in g -- ev er y ti me so me on e is cl ic ki ng on on e of

01:44:15PM

19

th es e li nk s, th ei r br ow se r is re qu es ti ng ne w

01:44:18PM

20

in fo rm at io n -- a ne w we b pa ge .

01:44:21PM

21

01:44:24PM

22

on ly de li ve re d af te r so me on e we nt in to a th re ad and th en

01:44:27PM

23

c li ck ed o n a sp ec if ic pos t.

01:44:31PM

24

de fe nd an t is ac cu se d of cl ic ki ng on th at po st , th e we bs it e

01:44:36PM

25

w o u l d h a v e gi v e n h i s T o r b r ow s e r a w e b p a g e .

Wh en Ag en t Al fi n te st if ie d ab ou t th e NI T ru nn in g in

Su re .

Fr om wh at we und er st an d, fr om wha t has bec om e

Af t e r t h a t t h e y w o u l d h a v e c l i c k e d o n a l i n k to An d ev er y ti m e th er e is a cl ic k th at

A c co r d i n g t o wh a t t he s p e c i a l a g e n t s a i d, t he N I T w a s

S o a t th e po in t th at th e

C on t a i n e d


112

01:44:40PM

1

w i t h i n t h a t w e b p a g e w o u l d h a v e b e en a n i n s t r u c t i o n f o r

01:44:43PM

2

th e To r br ow se r -- no t fo r th e de fe nd an t, bu t fo r th e To r

01:44:47PM

3

br o w s e r .

01:44:47PM

4

Q.

01:44:50PM

5

se e th at on th e we b pa ge ?

01:44:52PM

6

A.

Ca n a hu ma n se e i t?

01:44:54PM

7

Q.

Wo ul d th e us er who

01:44:58PM

8

th e in te rn et , wo ul d th ey se e th os e in st ru ct io ns ?

01:45:01PM

9

A.

01:45:03PM

10

to a re gu la r us er .

01:45:08PM

11

b e a b l e to fi g u r e t h at o u t , bu t a r e g u l a r p e r s o n ju s t

01:45:11PM

12

cl ic ki ng ar ou nd is no t go in g to kn ow th er e ha s be en th is

01:45:14PM

13

ne w sp ec ia l co de ad de d to th e we b pa ge .

01:45:17PM

14

Q.

01:45:20PM

15

yo u sa y "s en di ng in st ru ct io ns, " it is no t in st ru ct io ns to

01:45:22PM

16

th e us er , in th is c as e all eg e dl y

01:45:26PM

17

ins tru cti ons to the tar get com put er?

01:45:28PM

18

A.

01:45:31PM

19

d oe s no t ru n on th e we bs it e .

01:45:36PM

20

w e b b ro w s e r .

01:45:39PM

21

th is ."

01:45:42PM

22

br o w s e r in t hi s c a s e , i n t h is c a s e i n t h e s t a t e o f

01:45:45PM

23


01:45:47PM

24

re ce iv ed by th e To r br ow se r he re in th e st at e of

01:45:50PM

25

Wa s h i n g t o n t ha t t h e y a r e ru n on t h at c o m p u t e r, a n d t h e n do

Le t' s st op th er e.

Wh en yo u sa y "co nt ai ne d, " ca n yo u

is loo ki ng for , sa y, a pi ct ur e on

No , th er e wo ul dn' t ha ve be en any in st ru ct io ns vi si bl e A hi gh -t ec h so ph is ti ca te d pe rs on mi gh t

So it is hi dd en co de ru nn in g in the ba ck gr ou nd .

r.

Wh en

ic ha ud , it is

I wa nt to pa u se on th at wo rd "r un n in g. "

Th e co de

Th e co de al wa ys ru ns on yo ur

S o t h e we b s i t e t el l s t h e w e b b r o w s er , " Do

Th e co de is do wn lo ad ed to th e we b br ow se r, the

To r

A n d i t i s o n l y wh e n t h e i n s t r u ct i o n s a re


113

01:45:54PM

1

wh a t e v e r t h e N I T i s s u p p o s ed to do .

01:45:56PM

2

Q.

01:45:58PM

3

wh a t e x a c t ly w a s t h e N I T s u p p o s e d t o d o w h e n i t w a s

01:46:01PM

4

ins ert ed int o the Was hin gto n com put er?

01:46:04PM

5

A.

01:46:08PM

6

complicated.

01:46:09PM

7

Q. Go slo wly .

01:46:10PM

8

A.

01:46:14PM

9

in fo rm at io n.

01:46:18PM

10

it s re al IP ad dr es s to an yo n e.

01:46:21PM

11

th at yo u us e To r.

01:46:22PM

12

Q.

01:46:25PM

13

run nin g on the Was hin gto n com put er?

01:46:26PM

14

A.

01:46:30PM

15

w o u l d h a v e b ee n r u n n i n g t h e r e .

01:46:32PM

16

not supposed to do is give up your IP address.

01:46:36PM

17

we b s i t e t h a t y o u a r e v i si t i n g w i t h a T o r b r o w s e r as k s f o r

01:46:38PM

18

yo ur IP ad dr es s, th e To r br ow se r wi ll sa y no .

01:46:42PM

19

01:46:45PM

20

br o w s e r l i k e a f i r e w a l l .

01:46:48PM

21

d o g , a g ua r d d o g a r o u n d a h o u s e .

01:46:51PM

22

tr ai ne d to ba rk at ev er y pe rs on wh o ap pr oa ch es th e ho us e,

01:46:55PM

23

an d so me on e ap pr oa ch es an d the gu ar d do g do es n't ba rk,

01:46:59PM

24

we l l , y o u h a v e t o a s k , w h a t ha p p e n e d ?

01:47:02PM

25

gu ar d do g ba rk ?

An d in th is ca se , fr om th e te st im on y yo u ha ve he ar d,

Okay.

S o t h i s is wh e r e i t g e t s a l i t t l e b i t

We don 't kno w on e of the

im po rt an t bi ts of

Th e To r br ow se r is no t su pp os ed to gi ve up

An d tha t To r br ow s er --

Th a t is th e on e re as on

Th at is a pr og ra m tha t is

On th e com pu te r of th e def en da nt .

If you think --

Th e Tor br ow se r

Th e o n e t h i n g th e T or i s An d if a

I k n o w y o u h a v e s a i d t h i n k of th e T o r T hi n k of i t m o r e l i k e a g ua r d If the guard dog is

W h y d i d n 't t he

So so me th in g my st er io us ha pp en ed in th is


114

01:47:07PM

1

ca se th at ca us ed th e To r br ow se r to ev en le t th e NI T do

01:47:10PM

2

wh a t it w an t e d t o d o , w h i c h wa s to c o l l e c t t h i s

01:47:13PM

3

in fo rm at io n th at th e To r br ow se r wo ul d ne ve r or di na ri ly

01:47:16PM

4

gi ve up .

01:47:16PM

5

Q.

01:47:19PM

6

h av e al l th e co de .

01:47:23PM

7

co de th at is se nt to th e co mp ut er in Wa sh in gt on , co rr ec t?

01:47:26PM

8

A.

01:47:29PM

9

Wa s h i n g t o n St a t e t h a t s o m e ho w c a u s e s t h e c o m p u te r in

01:47:31PM

10

Wa s h i n g t o n st a t e t o d o s o m e t hi n g t h a t i t w o u ld n o t

01:47:35PM

11

nor mal ly do.

01:47:35PM

12

Q.

01:47:39PM

13

is now gi vi ng in st ru ct io ns or ov er ri di ng in st ru ct io ns on

01:47:43PM

14

tha t Was hin gto n com put er?

01:47:46PM

15

A.

01:47:49PM

16

co ul d th in k of it as ma yb e pu tt in g a sl ee pi ng pi ll in th e

01:47:52PM

17

dog foo d.

01:47:53PM

18

Q.

01:47:58PM

19

th e Wa sh in gt on co mp ut er af te r th is de li ve ry , I gu es s fr om

01:48:02PM

20

Vi r g i n i a , w h a t i s t h e n e x t s t e p in w h a t t h e N I T , fr o m a l l

01:48:05PM

21

of yo ur re se ar ch an d re vi ew of di sc ov er y, di d?

01:48:08PM

22

A.

01:48:12PM

23

w i t h i n t h e To r b r o w s er , i t t h e n ha d t o c o l le c t i n f or m a t i o n

01:48:16PM

24

f ro m th e co mp ut er th a t i t wi sh ed to se nd ba ck .

01:48:19PM

25

ca se it wo ul d be th e IP ad dr es s, wh ic h is an ad dr es s th at

So we do n' t kn ow ex ac tl y th e pr oc es s be ca us e we do n' t Bu t ju st t o cl a ri fy , th e NI T is hid de n

It is hi d de n co de tha t is se nt t o th e co mp ut er in

So not

Ye s.

on ly is th e NI T go in g to Was hi ng to n St at e, it

If yo u wa nt to us e th e gua rd do g ana lo gy , yo u

No w, on ce th os e ov er ri de in st ru ct io ns are ex ec ut ed on

So on ce the

NI T ha d by pa ss ed the

se cu ri ty co nt ro ls

In th is


115

01:48:22PM

1

li nk s th e co mp ut er to a re si de nt ia l in te rn et ac co un t.

It

01:48:25PM

2

would be what is called the

01:48:29PM

3

ser ial num ber ass oci ate d wit h you r wi- fi car d, pro gra mme d

01:48:33PM

4

in th e fa ct or y of th e wi -f i ca rd ma nu fa ct ur er .

01:48:37PM

5

w o u l d b e s o m e o t h e r i n f o r ma t i o n ab o u t t h e o p e r a t i n g s y s t e m

01:48:39PM

6

th at th e sp ec ia l ag en t re ad ou t wh en he wa s on th e st an d,

01:48:43PM

7

th e us er na me on th e co mp ut er, wh ic h ve rs io n of Wi nd ow s

01:48:46PM

8

yo u ar e ru nn in g, so me ba si c in fo rm at io n.

01:48:49PM

9

01:48:51PM

10

tr an sm it th at in fo rm at io n ba ck to th e co mp ut er in

01:48:54PM

11

Vi r g i n i a , i t w o u l d f i r s t h a ve t o g o a n d c o l l e c t i t .

01:48:58PM

12

yo u th in k of th is as in fo rm at io n th at is in a ho us e, we ll ,

01:49:00PM

13

m a y b e o n e p i e c e o f i t i s i n th e b e dr o o m , a n d a n o t h e r pi e c e

01:49:04PM

14

is in th e li vi ng ro om , on e pi ec e of it is in th e d ra we r.

01:49:06PM

15

Th e NI T fi rs t ha s to go an d co ll ec t th e in fo rm at io n fr om

01:49:09PM

16

di ff er en t pa rt s of the

01:49:13PM

17

th at in fo rm at io n, th en it wo ul d tr an sm it it ba ck to th e

01:49:16PM

18

ser ver in Vir gin ia.

01:49:18PM

19

Q.

01:49:24PM

20

sec uri ty or ove rri des sec uri ty fea tur es on the Was hin gto n

01:49:27PM

21

c om pu te r.

01:49:30PM

22

ac tu al ly co ll ec ts da ta or ev id en ce on th at co mp ut er .

01:49:34PM

23

th en th e th ir d st ep , af te r it has se iz ed th e Wa sh in gt on

01:49:37PM

24

d at a i n th is ca se , it th en wr ap s it up in li ke a l it tl e

01:49:42PM

25

ev id en ce ba g an d de li ve rs it to th e FB I in Vi rg in ia ?

A C a d dr e s s , w h i ch is a u n i q u e

Th er e

Bu t to le ar n th at in fo rm at io n, be fo re th e NI T co ul d

co mp ut er .

So if

An d th en onc e it has

So if I un de rs ta nd th e pr oc es s, th e NI T by pa ss es

F ir st st ep , ri g ht ?

An d th en se co nd , it


An d

116

01:49:45PM

1

A.

01:49:49PM

2

ev id en ce bag .

01:49:52PM

3

Vi r g i n i a .

01:49:52PM

4

Q.

01:49:57PM

5

is st ore d, ap pa re nt ly , on an FB I se rv er ; is th at co rr ec t?

01:50:01PM

6

A.

01:50:06PM

7

g ov er nm en t' s co nt ro l.

01:50:10PM

8

th is ro om ab ou t wh er e we th in k th e se rv er is or wh ic h

01:50:13PM

9

co mp an y we th in k mi gh t ha ve be en ru nn in g th e ser ve r.

01:50:15PM

10

Q.

I don't want you to --

01:50:17PM

11

A.

A co mp ut er in Virg in ia .

01:50:20PM

12

Q.

Is it th en fai r to say aft er thi s se ar ch and

01:50:24PM

13

in Wa sh in gt on , th en re al ly wh at is go in g on is it is in

01:50:26PM

14

li ke an ev id en ce ro om in Vi rg in ia wh er e th ey ke ep th at

01:50:28PM

15

ev id en ce un ti l th ey ne ed it ?

01:50:31PM

16

R. BEC KE R:

01:50:33PM

17

01:50:34PM

18

01:50:36PM

19

By

r. Fieman:

01:50:36PM

20

Q.

De sc ri be th en what

01:50:38PM

21

A.

On ce th e da ta has

01:50:43PM

22

no ide a wh at the

01:50:46PM

23

th at it was tra ns mi tt ed to a co mp ut er in Vi rg in ia .

01:50:49PM

24

t ha t po in t w e ha ve no --

01:50:51PM

25

in fo rm at io n ab ou t ho w it is st or ed , or wh o ha s ac ce ss to

Th at so un ds ri gh t.

Al th ou gh I' m no t su re ab ou t th e

It tra ns mi ts it ba ck to th e co mp ut er in

An d th en on ce th at da ta ha s be en tr an sm it te d ba ck , it

Th e sp ec ia l ag en t sa id th at th e se rv er is un de r th e

Ho no r.

I am n ot su r e ho w mu ch I ca n sa y i n

se iz ur e

Ob je ct to le ad in g at thi s po in t, you r

I th in k we ar e ju st re it er at in g te st im on y. TH E CO UR T:

Th at is a fa ir ob je ct io n.

th e st or ag e in Vi rg in ia is ab ou t. be en tr an sm it te d by th e NI T, I ha ve

go ve rn me nt wo ul d do wi th it .

W e kn ow At

Th ey hav en 't tu rn ed ov er


117

01:50:54PM

1

it , or wh et he r it is p ri nt ed o n p ap er or st or ed li ve i n a

01:50:58PM

2

co mp ut er .

01:51:01PM

3

Q.

01:51:08PM

4

p a r t s o f t h e c o d e t h at a r e m i s s i n g d a t a , a n d s o y o u h a v e

01:51:12PM

5

to be a li tt le re se rv ed ab ou t yo ur op in io ns , co rr ec t?

01:51:14PM

6

A.

01:51:21PM

7

br o w s e r to do t h i s t h i n g t h at t h e T o r b r o w s e r w o u l d n e v e r

01:51:25PM

8

n or ma ll y do .

01:51:29PM

9

ge ne ra l wa y of de sc ri bi ng th is is to ex pl oi t se cu ri ty

01:51:35PM

10

01:51:36PM

11

01:51:39PM

12

te rm "m al wa re ."

01:51:44PM

13

th e te rm "m al wa re " re al ly de sc ri be s so ft wa re th at is do in g

01:51:48PM

14

th in gs th at th e pe rs on wh os e co mp ut er it is ru nn in g on

01:51:54PM

15

do es n' t kn ow it is do in g or do es n 't wa nt it t o d o.

01:51:58PM

16

ma n y , m a n y c as e s m a l w a r e, to e f fe c t i v e l y f u n c t io n , f i r s t

01:52:01PM

17

mu s t e x p l o it s o m e s e c u r i t y f l a w in t h e s o f t w a r e t h a t is

01:52:05PM

18

ru nn in g on yo ur co mp ut er , wh et he r th at is yo ur we b

01:52:07PM

19

br o w s e r , a pi e c e o f e m a il s o ft w a r e , o r P o w er P o i n t , o r

01:52:11PM

20

01:52:12PM

21

01:52:15PM

22

en gi ne er s wh o wr it e th em do th e be st jo b th ey ca n, bu t

01:52:19PM

23

so me ti me s th ey ma ke mi st ak es .

01:52:21PM

24

ou t th er e th at ar e lo ok in g to fi nd th es e fl aw s.

01:52:24PM

25

ca n fi nd on e of th es e fl aw s, yo u ca n wr it e sp ec ia l co de

We don 't kn ow ho w it is mai nt ai ne d.

No w, yo u ha d ju st brie fl y me nt io ne d th at th er e ar e

I d o n o t k n o w h ow th e N I T w a s a b l e t o g et th e T o r

Th e ge n er al wa y th at on e do es th is -- the

fla ws in sof twa re. In fa ct , wh en I st ar te d te st if yi ng he re I us ed th e An d in the

co mp ut er se cu ri ty co mm un it y

In

icroso ft Word. A ll o f t h e s e p r o gr a m s t h a t we r u n o n o u r c o m pu t e r , t h e

Th er e ar e a lo t of pe op le If you


118

01:52:27PM

1

th at ta ke s ad va nt ag e of th e fl aw , an d th en le ts yo u ru n

01:52:30PM

2

co de on a co mp ut er th at the co mp ut er pr ob ab ly sh ou ld n' t

01:52:33PM

3

ru n no rm al ly , or ob ta in in fo rm at io n th at yo u wou ld n' t

01:52:36PM

4

no rm al ly be ab le to ge t.

01:52:37PM

5

Q.

01:52:41PM

6

yo u th is :

01:52:44PM

7

th e te st im on y, if th e NI T ha d no t be en de li ve re d to th e

01:52:47PM

8

Wa s h i n g t o n co m p u t e r , a n d c ol l e c t e d t h e d a t a f o r t h e

01:52:51PM

9

Wa s h i n g t o n co m p u t e r , w o u l d t h e w e b s i t e o t h e r w i s e ha v e t h e

01:52:56PM

10

IP ad dr es s an d ot he r id en ti fy in g da ta in th e nor ma l co ur se

01:52:59PM

11

of even ts?

01:53:00PM

12

A.

01:53:03PM

13

pieces of information.

01:53:11PM

14

01:53:13PM

15

b r i e f a r e a an d t h e n I w i l l b e a b l e t o w r a p u p.

01:53:14PM

16

By

r. Fieman:

01:53:14PM

17

Q.

Fr om a te ch ni ca l st an dp oi nt , I wa nt to as k yo u ab ou t

01:53:17PM

18

wh e n t he N I T w a s s e n t t o W a sh i n g t o n , h o w i t w a s d e p l o y e d .

01:53:20PM

19

Yo u ha ve re vi ew ed th e wa rr an t ap pl ic at io n in th is ca se --

01:53:24PM

20

the NIT war ran t app lic ati on?

01:53:26PM

21

A. Yes , sir .

01:53:26PM

22

Q.

01:53:29PM

23

a ll ow ed fo r th e FB I to de pl o y -- to se nd th e NI T

01:53:35PM

24

an yw he re at th e ti me pe op le lo gg ed in to th e ho me pa ge ; is

01:53:37PM

25

that correc t?

A n d y o u sa y n o t n o r m a l l y b e a b l e t o g e t .

No .

Let me ask

B as ed on al l yo ur re v ie w of th e di sc ov er y a nd

Th e To r br ow se r is pr og ra mm ed to pro te ct th os e

R. FIE MA N :

Yo ur Hon o r, I ju st ha ve one oth er

Yo u ar e aw ar e the war ra nt ap pl ic at io n, I th in k,


119

01:53:37PM

1

A.

01:53:41PM

2

on e ca n be aw ar e as a no n- la wy er .

01:53:43PM

3

Q.

01:53:48PM

4

co ll ec t al l th is in fo rm at io n fr om an yw he re in th e wo rl d,

01:53:50PM

5

correct?

01:53:50PM

6

A.

01:53:56PM

7

com put er, the gov ern men t doe sn' t kno w whe re the com put ers

01:53:58PM

8

ar e.

01:54:01PM

9

co ul d be in Ut ah , it co ul d al so b e in Fr an ce or Sp ai n.

01:54:05PM

10

A g a i n , t h e To r n e t w o rk is a gl o b a l n e t w o r k w i t h h u n d r e d s

01:54:09PM

11

of th ou sa nd s of us er s lo ca te d ar ou nd th e wo rl d.

01:54:13PM

12

no wa y of kn ow in g ah ea d of ti me w he re an y on e of th os e

01:54:16PM

13

us er s of To r mi gh t be .

01:54:18PM

14

Q.

01:54:21PM

15

co ul d be de pl oy ed at th e ho me pa ge , wa s th er e any te ch ni ca l

01:54:26PM

16

re as on th at yo u ar e aw ar e of wh y th e we bs it e wo ul d ha ve to

01:54:31PM

17

ret ain , and pub lis h, and dis tri but e chi ld por nog rap hy

01:54:37PM

18

in si de th e we bs it e in or de r to ac co mp li sh th e NI T

01:54:40PM

19

deployment?

01:54:40PM

20

01:54:42PM

21

a lr ea dy ru le d on th is is su e .

01:54:45PM

22

of the su pp re ss io n is su es he re .

01:54:49PM

23

01:54:50PM

24

th e po in t of de pl oy me nt , an d th at th e po in t of de pl oy me nt

01:54:54PM

25

co ul d ha ve oc cu rr ed fr om th e ho me pa ge in al l ca se s.

I am awa re of wh at th e wa rr an t au th or iz ed , as far

as

As of th at poi nt , th e NI T co ul d be dep lo ye d an d

At the tim e t ha t th e NI T is del iv er ed to th e

Th e co mp ut er cou ld be in the sta te of Wa sh in gt on , it

Th er e is

No w, ju st fr om a te ch ni ca l st an dp oi nt , if th e NI T

R. BE CK ER :

R. FIE MA N :

Ob je ct io n , yo ur H on or .

Yo u hav e

Th is is no t re le v an t to an y

Yo ur Hon o r, I ju st wa nt to ta lk ab o ut


120

TH E CO UR T:

I' m no t su re I un de rs ta nd the

qu es ti on

01:54:56PM

1

01:54:59PM

2

here.

01:55:00PM

3

By

r. Fieman:

01:55:00PM

4

Q.

Is the re an y re a so n wh y al l o f th e NI Ts , in ord er to

01:55:03PM

5

co ll ec t IP ad dr es se s pu rs ua nt to th is wa rr an t, co ul d no t

01:55:06PM

6

ha ve be en de pl oy ed si mp ly fr om th e ho me pa ge , th at yo u ar e

01:55:10PM

7

aw ar e of?

01:55:11PM

8

A.

01:55:17PM

9

Th e fa ct th at th e go ve rn me nt ch os e to de li ve r it on a fe w

01:55:22PM

10

se le ct pa ge s af te r pe op le lo gg ed in or af te r pe op le ha d

01:55:24PM

11

cl ic ke d a fe w li nk s, th at se em s, fr om a te ch ni ca l

01:55:26PM

12

st an dp oi nt , ar bi tr ar y.

01:55:28PM

13

ho me pa ge be fo re pe op le lo gg ed in or af te r pe op le lo gg ed

01:55:42PM

14

in.

01:55:46PM

15

Q.

01:55:51PM

16

l ik e m e, Dr. Sog ho ia n.

01:55:58PM

17

ph y s i c a l p r o c e s s o f t h e N I T se a r c h t h a t y o u b e l i e v e w e

01:56:02PM

18

ha ve no t co ve re d th at th e co ur t sh ou ld be aw ar e of ?

01:56:06PM

19

A.

01:56:21PM

20

ha ve be en li ti ga ti ng to da y, no .

01:56:26PM

21

01:56:27PM

22

01:56:29PM

23

01:56:31PM

24

01:56:35PM

25

Yo u ca n de li ve r a NI T fr om an y we b pa ge o n th at si te .

Sl ow d o wn .

Th ey co ul d ha ve ev en pu t it on th e

T ha t' s ok ay .

I am ju st th in ki ng .

R. FIE MA N:

Yo u ar e an e as t co as te r

Is the re any poi nt in so rt of th e

Fo r th e iss ue s tha t yo u gu ys

Yo ur Hon or , do you

ha ve any

qu es ti on s

th at we ha ve no t ad dr es se d at th is po in t? THE C OURT: R. FI EM AN :

No.

Go a head.

Th an k yo u, yo ur Ho no r. CROSS-EXAMINATION


121

01:56:38PM

1

By

r. Becker:

01:56:45PM

2

Q.

Goo d aftern oon , Dr. Sog hoi an.

01:56:47PM

3

A.

01:56:48PM

4

Q.

01:56:56PM

5

gua ran tee per fec t ano nym ity to its use rs?

01:56:59PM

6

A.

01:57:02PM

7

Pr oj ec t te ll s pe op le th at it ca nn ot de li ve r pe rf ec t

01:57:05PM

8

security.

01:57:05PM

9

Q.

01:57:08PM

10

it s us er s th at it ca nn ot de li ve r, as yo u sa id , pe rf ec t

01:57:11PM

11

sec uri ty; is tha t cor rec t?

01:57:12PM

12

A.

01:57:16PM

13

ab ou t te n ye ar s ol d.

01:57:20PM

14

of gra nt s .

01:57:22PM

15

se cu ri ty re se ar ch co mm un it y ha s co me up wi th th us fa r.

01:57:25PM

16

Q.

It has som e gr ea t us es , is tha t fa ir t o s ay ?

01:57:28PM

17

A.

Th e To r Pr oj ec t is be in g us ed by Fa ce bo ok , it is

01:57:33PM

18

b e i n g u s e d by n e w s p a p e r s, P r o P u b li c a , a n d m an y n e w s p a p er s

01:57:38PM

19

th at no w ru n wh is tl e bl ow in g we bs it es .

01:57:41PM

20

kn ow, the To r Pr oj ec t wa s or ig ina ll y -- th e te ch no lo gy wa s

01:57:44PM

21

cr ea te d by th e U. S. Na vy , th e Na va l Re se ar ch La b, an d th e

01:57:47PM

22

U. S. go ve rn me nt ha s be en an d co nt in ue s to be the bi gg es t

01:57:51PM

23

fu nd er of To r.

01:57:51PM

24

Q.

01:57:55PM

25

po s i t i v e p u r p o s e s , c o r r e c t ?

Hi. Wo ul d yo u ag re e th at the

To r Pr oj ec t do es not

y un de rs ta nd in g is tha t th e ho me pa ge of th e To r

Ri gh t fr om th e ho me pa ge of th e To r Pr oj ec t it ad vi se s

Wh at I wi ll say , th ou gh , is tha t th e To r Pr oj ec t is It ha s re ce iv ed mi ll io ns of do ll ar s

It is th e be st thi ng th at th e co mp u te r

As we sa id , it can be

As I' m su re you

us ed for man y la ud ab le ,


122

01:57:56PM

1

A.

01:58:00PM

2

us ed by ma ny la w en fo rc em en t ag en ci es so th at th ey ca n

01:58:03PM

3

con duc t cov ert inv est iga tio ns onl ine .

01:58:05PM

4

Q.

01:58:09PM

5

pu r p o s e s ?

01:58:09PM

6

A.

Th at is a co mp li ca te d qu es ti on .

01:58:11PM

7

Q.

Is it ?

01:58:12PM

8

A.

Ye s.

01:58:16PM

9

th e Na vy cr ea te d To r, th e pu rp os e wa s to al lo w na va l

01:58:20PM

10

in ve st ig at or s to re se ar ch pe op le on li ne so th at th ey co ul d

01:58:23PM

11

inv est iga te wha tev er cri mes the Nav y is res ear chi ng

01:58:26PM

12

wi t h o u t t i p pi n g o f f t h e w o r l d w i t h t h e f a c t t h a t th e N a vy

01:58:30PM

13

is re se ar ch in g th em .

01:58:32PM

14

th at is pr ot ec ti ng th e pr iv ac y of na va l in ve st ig at or s, an d

01:58:35PM

15

th e on ly pe op le wh o ar e us in g it ar e na va l in ve st ig at or s,

01:58:38PM

16

we l l , t h e n yo u a r e n o t a n o n y mo u s .

01:58:40PM

17

Q.

01:58:42PM

18

A.

01:58:42PM

19

Q.

Wo ul d yo u ag re e th at crim in al s us e Tor ?

01:58:45PM

20

A.

Th at is by de si gn .

01:58:46PM

21

Q.

Cr im in al s us e Tor by desi gn ?

01:58:49PM

22

A.

Wh en th e Na vy cr ea te d To r, an d pu t th e te ch no lo gy ou t

01:58:52PM

23

th er e, th ey kn ew th at th ey wo ul d ha ve bo th go od an d ba d

01:58:55PM

24

users.

01:58:57PM

25

Q.

Th at is cor re ct .

Do you

An d my un de rs ta nd in g is it is al so

ag re e it can als o be mis us ed for

il li ci t

Be ca us e th e or ig in al c re at or s of T or - -

Ar e th ey the

Wh e n

No w, if yo u ha ve th is te ch no lo gy

on ly peo pl e us in g To r?

No.

If you only have one --

So you ag re e th er e ar e go od --


123

R. FIE MA N:

Yo ur Hon or , if Dr.

So gh oi an cou ld

01:58:59PM

1

01:59:01PM

2

fin ish his ans wer .

01:59:02PM

3

TH E CO UR T:

01:59:05PM

4

TH E WI TN ES S:

01:59:08PM

5

us in g Tor , th en th e mo me nt a we bs it e re ce iv es so me on e

01:59:11PM

6

co mi ng fr om To r -- re ce iv es a re qu es t fr om so me on e us in g

01:59:15PM

7

To r , th ey kno w th at it i s th e U. S . go ve rn me nt .

01:59:19PM

8

c re at or s of To r ha ve a ph ra s e th ey us e, an d th ey u se i t i n

01:59:23PM

9

re se ar ch pa pe rs an d el se wh er e, it is th at an on ym it y lo ve s

01:59:27PM

10

c om pa ny .

01:59:30PM

11

p e o p l e b l e n d i n t o t h e c r o w d, y ou n e e d a c r o w d.

01:59:33PM

12

cr ea to rs of To r fr om da y on e kn ew th at th er e wo ul d be us es

01:59:38PM

13

of To r th at so ci et y wo ul d lo ve an d us es of To r th at

01:59:42PM

14

so ci et y wo ul d no t lo ve as mu ch .

01:59:44PM

15

By

r. Becker:

01:59:46PM

16

Q.

Le t' s ba ck ar ou nd to my

01:59:50PM

17

us e To r to ma sk yo ur id en ti ty wh il e co mm it ti ng cr im es,

01:59:53PM

18

correct?

01:59:54PM

19

A.

01:59:58PM

20

on li ne , an d pe op le ca n co mm it cr im es on li ne .

02:00:00PM

21

Q.

02:00:03PM

22

com mit cri mes onl ine thr oug h Tor ?

02:00:07PM

23

A.

02:00:11PM

24

sa yi ng , ca n yo u us e a ca r t o co m mi t a cr im e?

02:00:14PM

25

I gu e ss s o.

Yo u in te rr up te d th e wi tn es s. If yo u on ly ha ve na va l in ve st ig at or s

So th e

If yo u wa nt to ha v e a te c hn ol og y th at le ts

qu es ti on .

And so the

We ag re e yo u ca n

Yo u ca n us e To r to mas k yo ur ide nt it y wh en you

ar e

Yo u ca n us e To r to mas k yo ur ide nt it y wh il e yo u

To r is a co mm un ic at io n te ch no lo gy .

Th at is lik e We ll , ye ah ,

Bu t it is a re g ul ar tec hn ol og y th at ha s go o d


124

02:00:17PM

1

us er s an d ba d us er s.

02:00:21PM

2

so me ki nd of mo ra li ty ass oc ia te d wi th it.

02:00:25PM

3

Fe dE x, or th e po st of fi ce , or th e te le ph on e li ne , it is a

02:00:29PM

4

core commu nicati ons and transp ortati on techn ology.

02:00:31PM

5

Q.

02:00:34PM

6

wh a t s o r t o f c o m m u n i c a t i on t e c h n o l o g y t h a t c r i mi n a l s ar e

02:00:38PM

7

us in g, la w en fo rc em en t ne ed s to ta ke ac ti on ba se d on

02:00:41PM

8

wh a t e v e r t h a t t e c h n o l o g y i s; is t h at f a i r t o s a y?

02:00:43PM

9

A.

02:00:47PM

10

us in g To r -- ab ou t cr im in al s us in g To r, I th in k th e mo st

02:00:51PM

11

ra ti on al ap pr oa ch wo ul d be to st op th e U. S. go ve rn me nt

02:00:54PM

12

fro m fun din g Tor .

02:00:55PM

13

Q.

02:00:58PM

14

investigated?

02:00:58PM

15

A.

02:01:01PM

16

wa n t c r i mi n a l s t o h i de t h ei r i de n t i t y u s i n g T o r , th e n t h e

02:01:05PM

17

U. S. go ve rn me nt sh ou ld st op wr it in g th e ch ec ks th at ar e

02:01:09PM

18

p a y i n g f o r To r t o b e d e v e l o p e d.

02:01:11PM

19

th e av ai la bi li ty of a te ch no lo gy th at le ts pe op le hi de ,

02:01:14PM

20

an d yo u do n' t th in k -- yo u th in k it is be in g mi su se d, wh y

02:01:17PM

21

are you paying for it?

02:01:23PM

22

Q.

02:01:26PM

23

Yo u ha ve n' t re vi ew ed an y co mp ut er s or di gi ta l ev id en ce

02:01:28PM

24

re la te d to th is ca se ; is th at ri gh t?

02:01:29PM

25

A. No , s ir .

Su re .

Th at do es n' t me an th e te ch no lo gy ha s It is li ke

An d I'm su re we wo ul d agr ee th at no ma tt er

I th in k if law enf or ce me nt is co nc er ne d ab ou t pe op le

Yo u do n' t wa nt cri mi na ls wh o ar e us in g To r to be

No, I am not saying that.

I am sa yi n g if yo u d o n ' t

If you are worried about

Just cut it off.

Le t me as k yo u so me qu es ti on s ab ou t a di ff er en t ar ea .


125

02:01:30PM

1

Q.

02:01:33PM

2

se iz ed fr om th e de fe nd an t's ho me?

02:01:34PM

3

A. No , s ir .

02:01:34PM

4

Q.

02:01:38PM

5

pr o v i d e d i n d i s c o v e r y , c o r r e c t?

02:01:39PM

6

A.

02:01:44PM

7

c om pu te r co de pr ov id e d t o hi m by DO J.

02:01:48PM

8

re po rt th at Vl ad se nt to me , bu t I ha ve no t pe rs on al ly

02:01:52PM

9

re vi ew ed the NI T co de .

02:01:55PM

10

02:01:57PM

11

02:01:59PM

12

02:02:01PM

13

I wa s una wa re of an y w ri tt en re p or t fr om

02:02:12PM

14

am no t su re th er e is on e at t hi s po in t.

02:02:14PM

15

ha s be en, ob vi ou sl y, a lo t of co nv er sa ti on s wi th th e

02:02:15PM

16

v ar io us ex pe rt s on al l si d es .

02:02:21PM

17

tu rn ov er .

02:02:22PM

18

By

r. Becker:

02:02:23PM

19

Q.

Dr . So gh oi an, can

02:02:25PM

20

co mm un ic at io ns yo u ha ve had wi th th e de fe ns e exp er t ab ou t

02:02:26PM

21

th e an al ys is of th e co de ?

02:02:28PM

22

A.

02:02:31PM

23

hi s in it ia l an al ys is of the sh el l co de .

02:02:34PM

24

Q.

02:02:37PM

25

that?

Yo u ha ve n't revi ew ed an y of th e co mp ut er s th at we re

Yo u ha ve n't revi ew ed an y co mp ut er co de that has

be en

So Vl ad , wh o is ou r ot he r ex pe rt , he ha s re vi ew ed

R. BEC KE R :

I ha ve re ad the

Yo ur Hon o r, I wo ul d m ak e a Je nc ks

re qu es t fo r th at re po rt , if we do n' t ha ve it . R. FI EM AN :

Su re .

I ac tu al ly do n' t ei th er , yo ur Hon or . r. Ci rk ov ic .

I

Al th ou gh , th er e

So I do n' t ha ve a r ep or t t o

I wi ll ma ke in qu ir ie s, yo ur Ho no r, ab so lu te ly .

yo u de sc ri be th e wr it te n

He sen t me a fe w- pa ra gr ap h em ai l de sc ri bi ng

Di d yo u si gn a pr ot ec ti ve or de r be for e yo u re ce iv ed


126

02:02:37PM

1

A.

02:02:42PM

2

re ta in ed.

02:02:47PM

3

I am pr et ty su re I di d.

02:02:51PM

4

se nt me th e pr ot ec ti ve or de r an d as ke d me to ag re e to it .

02:02:54PM

5

I wo u ld ha ve to co ns ul t my re co rd s to se e if I si gn ed

02:02:57PM

6

so me th in g an d se nt it ba ck .

02:02:58PM

7

02:03:01PM

8

wi t n e s s h as t e s t i f i e d a b o u t a p a r t i c u l a r w r i t t e n

02:03:03PM

9

co mm un ic at io n du ri ng th e co ur se of this proc ee di ng.

02:03:06PM

10

02:03:11PM

11

R. FIE MA N:

02:03:13PM

12

THE WITNESS:

02:03:15PM

13

gl as s of wat er ?

02:03:46PM

14

By

r. Becker:

02:03:48PM

15

Q.

Do ct or , ju st a bas ic po in t.

02:03:50PM

16

co mm un ic at io ns on To r, it is co rr ec t th at wh en a us er

02:03:54PM

17

co mm un ic at es th ro ug h To r, th e us er is st il l us in g IP

02:03:58PM

18

add res ses in ord er to com mun ica te, cor rec t?

02:04:02PM

19

A.

So me on e do es n' t us e an IP ad dr es s to co mm un ic at e.

02:04:05PM

20

Q.

IP add res ses route commu

02:04:08PM

21

A.

No , an IP ad dr es s is a nu mb er as si gn ed to yo u.

02:04:12PM

22

us e th e in te rn et , an d in pa rt ic ul ar th e IP pr ot oc ol , to

02:04:16PM

23

c om mu ni ca te .

02:04:19PM

24

l ik e - -

02:04:21PM

25

yo ur ph ys ic al ad dr es s to co mm un ic at e, yo u us e th e po st

I ag re ed to a pr ot ec ti ve ord er whe n I fi rs t go t Wh et he r I si gn ed so me th in g, I do n' t re me mb er .

R. BE C K ER :

Th e pu bl ic de fe nd er def in it el y

Y o u r H o n o r, I w o u l d r e q u e s t - -

The

I

w o u l d r e q u e s t t h a t a n d o t he r c o mm u n i c a t i o ns . No obj ec ti on , yo ur Hon or . Is there any way I can ask for a

Is tha t po ss ib le ?

In te rm s of

nic ati ons, even throu

Bu t yo u do n' t u se yo u r ad dr es s.

gh Tor ? Yo u

I t i s n ot

Wh en yo u wr it e a le tt er to so me on e, yo u d on 't us e


127

02:04:24PM

1

of fi ce to co mm un ic at e, an d yo ur ad dr es s is pr in te d in th e

02:04:26PM

2

to p le ft- ha nd co rn er of the le tt er .

02:04:28PM

3

Q.

02:04:32PM

4

th at be a fa ir st at em en t?

02:04:33PM

5

A.

02:04:37PM

6

is a ne tw or k on to p of th e in te rn et .

02:04:43PM

7

Q.

02:04:46PM

8

no t us in g IP ad dr es se s to co mm un ic at e?

02:04:48PM

9

A.

02:04:51PM

10

to c om mu ni ca te .

02:04:55PM

11

pr o t o c o l t o c o m m u n i c a t e .

02:04:59PM

12

am lo st on th es e de ta il s, bu t yo u do n' t us e an IP ad dr es s

02:05:05PM

13

to commun icate.

02:05:06PM

14

Q.

02:05:12PM

15

"m al ic io us ."

02:05:17PM

16

th at wa s se nd in g so me th in g or us in g so me th in g wi th ou t

02:05:21PM

17

kn ow le dg e or co ns en t; is th at fa ir ?

02:05:24PM

18

A.

I' m so rr y.

02:05:26PM

19

Q.

Su re .

02:05:29PM

20

"m al ic io us ."

02:05:33PM

21

as som eth ing hap pen ing wit hou t kno wle dge or con sen t?

02:05:35PM

22

A.

Th at is a co mp on en t of ma lw ar e, ye s, si r.

02:05:40PM

23

Q.

Wo ul d it be po ss ib le fo r th at co mm un ic at io n to be

02:05:44PM

24

au th or iz ed an d fo r yo u to st il l de sc ri be it as ma li ci ou s?

02:05:49PM

25

A.

Ve ry w e ll .

D oe s To r no t us e IP a dd re ss es ?

To r is wh at is cal le d an ov er la y ne tw or k.

Wo ul d it be co rr ec t to say

Wo ul d

So th er e

us in g To r me an s yo u ar e

Ag ai n, as I sa id bef or e, you don 't use Yo u ha ve an IP ad d re ss .

an IP ad dr es s Yo u us e th e IP

I a m s o r r y i f i t s o un d s l i k e I

Yo u us ed an d de fi ne d th e te rm ea rl ie r th at yo u ca ll ed Yo u de fi ne d th at as so me on e wh o -- an en ti ty

Ca n yo u as k th at qu es ti on ag ai n, pl ea se ?

Yo u wer e de fi ni ng a te rm ea rl ie r a s Yo u sa id in yo ur co mm un it y yo u de fi ne th at

So th e qu es ti on is , ca n so me th in g be au th or iz ed an d


128

02:05:51PM

1

still malici ous?

02:05:53PM

2

Q.

02:05:54PM

3

A.

02:05:56PM

4

Q. A c ou rt .

02:05:59PM

5

A.

02:06:05PM

6

re al ly abo ut -- th e de fi ni ti on of ma lw ar e de pe nd s on th e

02:06:08PM

7

kn ow le dg e of th e us er an d th e co ns en t of th e us er .

02:06:11PM

8

Q.

02:06:21PM

9

02:06:22PM

10

02:06:24PM

11

02:06:27PM

12

02:06:30PM

13

By

02:06:31PM

14

Q.

02:06:33PM

15

as ke d yo u wh et he r To r --

02:06:36PM

16

pe r f e c t s ec u r i t y .

02:06:38PM

17

A.

I do rec al l th at exc ha ng e.

02:06:39PM

18

Q.

Is it al so fa ir to s ay th at a bu rg la r al ar m or a ho me

02:06:43PM

19

al ar m do es no t de li ve r pe rf ec t se cu ri ty ?

02:06:45PM

20

A.

02:06:48PM

21

fro nt doo r.

02:06:48PM

22

Q.

02:06:51PM

23

se cu ri ty , do es th at ma ke it ok ay fo r so me bo dy to br ea k th e

02:06:54PM

24

lo ck on yo ur fr on t do or an d go in an d ta ke in fo rm at io n

02:06:56PM

25

fr om yo ur ho me ?

Yeah. Aut hor ize d by whom ?

I th in k in the comp ut er se cu ri ty co mm un it y ma lw ar e is

So you

do n' t th in k th e co ur ts hav e th e ab il it y to --

R. B EC KE R :

I wi ll w it hd ra w th at .

No f ur th er

que sti ons , you r Hon or. R. FIE MA N:

Ve ry bri ef ly , yo ur Hon or . REDIRE CT EXAMIN ATION

r. Fieman: r. B ec ke r st ar te d wi th a ve ry si mp le q ue st io n.

He

To r do es no t pr om is e t o de li v er

D o y ou r e c al l t h a t ?

Th at is cor re ct , an d ne it he r do es th e lo ck on my

Bu t th e fa ct th at it do es n' t de li ve r pe rf ec t


129

02:06:57PM

1

A.

02:07:01PM

2

I will say --

02:07:01PM

3

Q.

Ju st as a ma tt er of co mm on sen se .

02:07:03PM

4

A.

As an in di vi du al , no , it do es n' t ma ke it ok ay .

02:07:08PM

5

02:07:15PM

6

02:07:19PM

7

ex pe ct pr iv ac y wi th wh at ev er is on th ei r co mp ut er an d on

02:07:25PM

8

the inter net?

02:07:26PM

9

02:07:28PM

10

pr o t e c t t he i r p r i v a c y o n li n e .

02:07:35PM

11

th e go ve rn me nt ha s sp en t so mu ch mo ne y tr yi ng to cr ea te

02:07:39PM

12

te ch no lo gi es that let

02:07:43PM

13

re al ly ha rd fo r th e av er ag e pe rs on to pr ot ec t th ei r

02:07:45PM

14

pr i v a c y o nl i n e .

02:07:48PM

15

pr i v a c y , w e h a v e t o w o r k h a rd .

02:07:52PM

16

in te rn et expe ri en ce .

02:07:57PM

17

t ha t i s no t as ea sy to us e in or de r to pr ot ec t ou r

02:08:00PM

18

pr i v a c y .

02:08:00PM

19

02:08:03PM

20

th is sp ac e to cr ea te to ol s th at le t th e av er ag e pe rs on

02:08:06PM

21

pr o t e c t t h e ms e l v e s .

02:08:11PM

22

ye ar s tr yi ng to he lp th e le ga l co mm un it y to pr ot ec t th ei r

02:08:13PM

23

pr i v a c y , t r y i n g t o g e t l a w f i r m s a n d t h e c o u r t s t o e m p l o y

02:08:17PM

24

b a s i c p r i v a c y a n d s e c u r i t y t e c h n o l o g y t o p r o t e c t wh a t y o u

02:08:21PM

25

al l a re do in g.

I am not sur e if tha t is the rig ht qu es ti on for me.


Th an k yo u .

No fu rt he r qu es ti on s.

It sor t of so un ds li k e no one sho ul d

TH E WI TN ES S:

It is ve ry har d fo r in di vi du al s to I t i s f o r t h a t r ea s o n t h at

pe op le pr ot ec t th ei r pr iv ac y.

It is

T h o se of us w ho a r e t r y i n g to p r o t e c t o u r S om e t i m e s w e g e t a s l o w e r

So me ti me s we have to

us e so ft wa re

Th er e is a hu ge am ou nt of re se ar ch th at is go in g on in

I have spent much of the last few

It is ha rd for

th e av er ag e pe r so n wh en


130

02:08:24PM

1

this stuff is so high-tech.

02:08:27PM

2

ye ar s we wi ll ge t be tt er an d ea si er te ch no lo gy th at wi ll

02:08:31PM

3

pr o t e c t p eo p l e .

02:08:34PM

4

02:08:39PM

5

it , I gu es s, we ca me to th e To r in st ru ct io ns , or wh at ev er ,

02:08:45PM

6

th at sa y th at it do es no t de li ve r pe rf ec t se cu ri ty .

02:08:49PM

7

th er e any pe rf ec t se cu ri ty at th is po in t, ot he r th an no t

02:08:55PM

8

pu t t i n g it in t h e r e ?

02:08:57PM

9

TH E WI TN ES S:

02:09:00PM

10

02:09:03PM

11

TH E C OU RT :

02:09:04PM

12

TH E WI TN ES S:

02:09:08PM

13

ha vi ng on e wa ll pr ot ec ti ng yo ur ca st le , yo u ha ve te n

02:09:12PM

14

walls.

02:09:15PM

15

wa l l , t h e y st i l l h a v e n i n e m o r e t h ey h a v e t o o v e r c o m e .

02:09:18PM

16

TH E CO UR T:

02:09:21PM

17

TH E WI TN ES S:

02:09:23PM

18

Pr ob ab ly ov er th e ne xt fe w ye ar s th ey ar e go in g to ad d

02:09:25PM

19

s om e mo re .

02:09:32PM

20

we e k -- a D e p a r t m e n t o f H o m e l a n d S e c u r i t y o f f i ci a l , a b o u t

02:09:34PM

21

th e te ch no lo gy th ey ar e fu nd in g to he lp cr ea te ev en mo re

02:09:37PM

22

walls.

02:09:41PM

23

ha ve ha pp en ed in th e la st fe w ye ar s, th e OP M br ea ch , wh er e

02:09:45PM

24

all the se fed era l emp loy ees had the ir pri vat e inf orm ati on

02:09:48PM

25

lo st an d st ol en by Ch in a, it is re al ly ha rd to de si gn

TH E CO UR T:

y h o p e i s o v e r th e n e x t f e w

We st ar te d th is -- or in th e mi dd le of

In my co mm un it y, and

in the

Is

co mp ut er

se cu ri ty co mm un it y, we us e co nc ep ts li ke de fe ns e in de pt h. Wh at ? De fe ns e in de pt h.

S o rat he r th an

That way if the barbarians get over the first

Th at is ki nd of wha t T or do es ? Th e To r ha s at le as t tw o wa ll s.

I wa s ha vi ng lu nc h wi th a DH S of fi c ia l th is

W h e n y o u l o o k a t s o me o f t h e d a t a b r e a ch e s t h a t


131

se cu re so ft wa re an d to pr ot ec t da ta .

02:09:51PM

1

02:09:54PM

2

Th e ol d ap pr oa ch w as le t' s k ee p th e ba d gu ys o ut .

02:09:58PM

3

th e ap pr oa ch is , ho w do we st op th e ba d gu ys be fo re th ey

02:10:01PM

4

ge t a ll th e wa y to th e in n er ro om of th e ho us e, or ho w do

02:10:05PM

5

w e l i m i t t h e i r a c c e s s t o i n f o rm a t i o n .

02:10:11PM

6

ra ce go in g on ri gh t no w be tw ee n th os e wh o ar e tr yi ng to

02:10:13PM

7

pr o t e c t d a t a a n d t h o se w h o a r e t r y i n g t o e x p l o i t da t a .

02:10:17PM

8

Th is is a re al ly in te re st in g ti me .

02:10:20PM

9

is fo r re gu la r pe op le it is re al ly ha rd to pr ot ec t

02:10:23PM

10

02:10:25PM

11

T H E C O U R T:

02:10:28PM

12

TH E WIT NE SS :

02:10:33PM

13

TH E CO UR T:

02:10:35PM

14

02:10:37PM

15

02:10:47PM

16

02:11:17PM

17

p r a c t i c a l s e n s e , y o u ha v e a bo u t a h a l f h o u r a p i e ce t o

02:11:20PM

18

ar gu e th is , wh ic h sh ou ld be e no ug h.

02:11:24PM

19

U. S. Su pr em e Co ur t th ey wo n' t gi ve yo u th at mu ch ti me .

02:11:29PM

20

02:11:31PM

21

02:11:31PM

22

02:11:39PM

23

02:11:41PM

24

es se nt ia ll y th e co re is su e ar ou nd wh ic h ev er yt hi ng el se

02:11:45PM

25

r ev ol ve s.

No w

There is an arms

Th e un fo rt un at e th in g

yours elf online .

R. FI EM AN :

Okay.

Thank y ou.

Th an k you , sir .

An y ot he r ev id en ce to be off er ed he re ? No ot he r ev id en ce , yo ur Ho no r, fr om

the def ens e. T H E CO U R T:

R. FI EM AN :

L e t me fi g u r e he r e a l i t t l e bi t .

In a

Wh en yo u g et t o t he

Wh o wo ul d y ou lik e to he ar fr om

first? TH E CO UR T: R. FI EM AN :

We ll , it is yo ur mot io n, or mo ti on s. Yo ur Ho no r, I th in k w e ar e do wn to

A nd it is re al ly a br ic k an d mo rt ar is s ue .


We

132

02:11:53PM

1

ha ve re so lv ed it .

Th is se ar ch ha pp en ed on a co mp ut er

02:11:59PM

2

lo ca te d in Vanc ou ve r, Wash in gt on.

02:12:07PM

3

is li mi te d to pe rs on s an d pr op er ty in th e Ea st er n Di st ri ct

02:12:11PM

4

of Vir gin ia.

02:12:12PM

5

02:12:18PM

6

yo ur Ho no r, wh en yo u is su ed yo ur or de r on We dn es da y wa s,

02:12:22PM

7

w h e r e d i d t h i s s e a r c h h a pp e n ?

02:12:28PM

8

res pon se cit ing the gov ern men t's own sti pul ati ons in oth er

02:12:35PM

9

N I T c a s e s, an d i t s o w n p l e a d in g s .

02:12:40PM

10

02:12:42PM

11

02:12:46PM

12

b a d t h i n g?

02:12:50PM

13

confr onting is severa lfold.

02:12:52PM

14

On e is , as we ci te d, th ey ob ta in ed a wa rr an t in

02:12:56PM

15

Vi r g i n i a t h a t o n i t s fa c e is l i m i te d t o V i r g i n i a.

02:13:00PM

16

is a si mp le, str ai gh tf or wa rd ru le .

02:13:06PM

17

an d al l th e ot he r ca se s, th at sa y if th e se ar ch ex ce ed s

02:13:12PM

18

th e sc op e, th e au th or iz at io n oc cu rs at a lo ca ti on th at is

02:13:15PM

19

no t au th or iz ed , su pp re ss io n is auto ma ti c.

02:13:19PM

20

go od- fa it h is su es , th er e ar e no Fr an ks is su es .

02:13:22PM

21

02:13:27PM

22

a wa rr an t to th e ma gi st ra te ju dg e in Vi rg in ia wh ic h on it s

02:13:33PM

23

fa ce in fo rm ed Ju dg e Bu ch an an th at th is is an Ea st er n

02:13:37PM

24

Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia se ar ch , wh en pr ev io us ly th ey ha d at

02:13:42PM

25

le as t in di ca te d in th e Co tt om ca se an d th e ot he r, th at th e

Th e wa rr an t on its

fa ce

Th e fi rs t qu es ti on th at yo u as ke d us to re sp on d to ,

We gave you a written

T h i s w a s a W a s hi n g t o n

search. N ow , i n a n d o f i t s e lf , i s t h a t u n c on s t i t u t i o n a l , o r a No.

B u t t h e p r ob l e m t h a t t h e g ov e r n m e n t is

And it

We ci te d Se da gha ty ,

Th er e is no

So th e qu es ti on is th en , wh y di d th e go ve rn me nt su bm it


133

se ar ch es oc cu rr ed bo th in th e di st ri ct an d el se wh er e?

02:13:46PM

1

02:13:51PM

2

02:13:57PM

3

in the co ur se of th es e se ve ra l ho ur s of pr oc ee di ng s

02:14:00PM

4

ex ac tl y wh y th ey di d th at .

02:14:05PM

5

de ci si on in In Re Wa rr an t, an d lo ok in g at th e pl ai n

02:14:09PM

6

la ng ua ge of Ru le 41 , wh ic h th ey ar e in th e pr oc es s of

02:14:14PM

7

tr yi ng to ge t ch an ge d, be ca us e it do es no t al lo w fo r th is ,

02:14:20PM

8

th ey ob ta in ed au th or iz at io n.

02:14:24PM

9

we l l i n t en t i o n e d , w h et h e r t h e y d i s c l o s e d e v e r y t h i n g, t h at

02:14:26PM

10

02:14:29PM

11

02:14:35PM

12

Wa s h i n g t o n , b u t t h e y i n f a c t h ad t o b y p a s s s e c u r i t y

02:14:39PM

13

me a s u r e s , l i k e t h e h o u s e a la r m s , o n h i s c o m p u t e r i n

02:14:42PM

14

Wa s h i n g t o n , l o o k t h r o u g h th e d a t a o n h i s c o m p u te r in or d e r

02:14:46PM

15

to get th e id en ti fy in g in fo rm at io n th at th ey sou gh t, an d

02:14:49PM

16

th en to ok it ba ck to th e ev id en ce ro om in Vi rg in ia .

02:14:54PM

17

02:14:58PM

18

02:15:00PM

19

02:15:03PM

20

ta rg et -- th e ta rg et be in g the se rv er in Wa sh in gt on , th at

02:15:07PM

21

th ey ar e go in g to re tr ie ve th e da ta fr om th er e, th e wh ol e

02:15:09PM

22

p o i n t o f t h i s i s t h e y c o ul d n ' t g e t t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n i n

02:15:12PM

23

Vi r g i n i a .

02:15:16PM

24

co mp ut er s to ge t it .

02:15:19PM

25

un fo rt un at el y fo r th em , st il l not al lo we d by Ru le 41 .

I re sp ec tf ul ly su bm it to yo ur Ho no r th at yo u ha ve se en

Be ca us e af te r Ju dg e Sm it h' s

No ma tt er wh et he r it was

wa r r a n t s a y s E a s t e r n D i st r i c t o f V i r g i n i a . A nd

r.

i c h a u d 's d a t a w a s no t o n l y s e i z ed h e r e in

In th ei r ow n pl ea di ng s th at we ha ve sh ow n to yo u, th ey al wa ys ref er to th is as in fo rm at io n se iz ed fr om r.

i ch au d' s co mp ut e r.

So a ll o f th is a bo ut t he

T he y h a d t o go e v e r y w he r e e l s e t o t a r g e t Yo ur Ho no r, th at is , fi rs t of al l,


134

or e im po rt an tl y, wh at ha s be en dr iv in g my se ns e of

02:15:24PM

1

02:15:26PM

2

fr us tr at io n wi th th is ca se , if yo u wa nt to do th at , ma ke

02:15:32PM

3

it cl ea r to th e ju dg e th at yo u ar e tr yi ng to do th at .

02:15:35PM

4

I ho ne st ly be li ev e th at Ju dg e Bu ch an an , wh en sh e

02:15:38PM

5

lo ok ed at th is wa rr an t, be ca us e it is wh at I in te rp re te d

02:15:41PM

6

th e wa rr an t to me an wh en I fi rs t re ad it , th at th ey we re

02:15:45PM

7

go in g to se ar ch an y nu mb er of co mp ut er s in th e Ea st er n

02:15:47PM

8

Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia th at mi gh t be lo gg in g in to th is si te .

02:15:50PM

9

Bu t yo u wi ll no t fi nd an yt hi ng th at te ll s th e ju dg e th is

02:15:53PM

10

is a wo rl dw id e wa rr an t.

02:15:56PM

11

wa r r a n t i ts e l f , i t s a y s E a s t e r n Di s t r i c t o f V i r g in i a ,

02:15:59PM

12

st op , pe ri od , no th in g mo re .

02:16:04PM

13

ar e in Vi rg in ia th at ha ve be en ca ug ht up in th is ca se ,

02:16:07PM

14

th ey ma y ha ve to ra is e di ff er en t is su es .

02:16:12PM

15

02:16:15PM

16

ca nd or .

02:16:20PM

17

w a y t hr o u g h t h e c o u r ts .

02:16:23PM

18

am en di ng the ru le -- th e Su pr em e Co ur t am en di ng the ru le,

02:16:25PM

19

if ev en tu al ly th at 's wh at it do es , be ca us e th at is wh at

02:16:28PM

20

th e De pa rt me nt of Ju st ic e is ho pi ng fo r, th en th e la w wi ll

02:16:31PM

21

change.

02:16:31PM

22

02:16:33PM

23

te ll th e ju dg es ex ac tl y wh at ki nd of au th or iz at io n th ey

02:16:37PM

24

ar e se ek in g.

02:16:42PM

25

op er at io ns an d te ch no lo gy, Amy He ss , as we ci te d, no t

If yo u lo o k at th e fa ce of th e

So fo r th os e de fe nd an ts wh o

A nd t h a t ' s w h y I h a ve b e e n hi t t i n g a t th e d u t y o f Yo ur Ho no r, it may

be tha t th is ne ed s t o wo rk its

I t ma y be t h a t t h e j u d g es , i n

Bu t as lo ng as th e la w st an ds , th e go ve rn me nt ne ed s to

An d no t in th e wo rd s of th ei r ow n he ad of


135

02:16:46PM

1

le av in g it fo r th e ju dg es to tr y an d fi gu re ou t wh at is

02:16:49PM

2

go in g on, ho pi ng ag ai ns t ho pe th ey wo n' t as k the fo ll ow -u p

02:16:53PM

3

qu es ti on s, but to

02:16:58PM

4

Ju dg e Ko zi ns ki sa id in th e CD T de ci si on s, a du ty of

02:17:06PM

5

candor.

02:17:06PM

6

N ow , y o u r H o n o r , I j u s t as k y o u , i n t e rm s of th e

02:17:09PM

7

di sp os it iv e is su e, to lo ok at th e fo ur co rn er s of th e

02:17:12PM

8

wa r r a n t , w h a t i s p r i n t e d o n th e f a ce , a n d a f t e r a l l o f

02:17:16PM

9

th is te st im on y an d th e go ve rn me nt 's pl ea di ng s, wh ic h we

02:17:19PM

10

w o u l d d i r e c t y o u t o , i t i s a W a s h in g t o n s e a rc h on an

02:17:22PM

11

Ea st er n Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia wa rr an t.

02:17:27PM

12

ve ry si mp le wa y to de ci de a ve ry co mp le x is su e, bu t

02:17:30PM

13

ev er yt hi ng el se fe ed s in to th at .

02:17:36PM

14

02:17:40PM

15

f or wa rd .

02:17:44PM

16

ne ve r sa id o r cl ai me d th at Ru le 4 1 do es no t ap p ly .

02:17:48PM

17

is no ex em pt io ns to Ru le 41 .

02:17:54PM

18

18 U. S . 3 10 3 .

02:18:00PM

19

wi t h it .

02:18:03PM

20

w a s m or e e x p a n s i v e , b u t i t i s t h e l a w .

02:18:07PM

21

02:18:12PM

22

del ibe rat ely vio lat ed Rul e 41, and the ir exp lan ati ons

02:18:17PM

23

ab ou t ho w Ru le 41 mi gh t ap pl y wo ul d no t pa ss mu st er in a

02:18:23PM

24

1L cl as s, th e up sh ot is st il l th at th e wa rr an t it se lf sa ys

02:18:28PM

25

th e Ea st er n Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia, fu ll st op .

ma ke it pl ai n.

An d th at is ex ac tl y wh at

W hy d i d t h e y d r a f t i t t h a t wa y ?

It so un ds li ke a

N o w l e t' s m o v e

Be ca us e Ru l e 4 1 do es n' t al lo w it .

It is th e la w.

An d t he y ha ve Th er e

Ru le 41 is cod if i ed i n So me ti me s we don ' t ag re e

S o m e t i m e s i f y o u a r e t h e g o v e r n m e n t yo u w i s h i t

A nd r e g a r d l es s of t he f a c t th a t t h e y c l e a r l y an d


136

A nd J u d g e S m i t h i n h i s I n R e w a r r a n t o p i n i o n go t i t

02:18:33PM

1

02:18:38PM

2

ri gh t.

02:18:43PM

3

a n d d a t a, bu t i t i s n o t j u s t a c l o u d .

02:18:48PM

4

ph y s i c a l l o c a t i o n f o r t h e s e se a r c h e s .

02:18:52PM

5

tes tim ony and the gov ern men t's ple adi ngs est abl ish es the

02:18:54PM

6

ph y s i c a l l o c a t i o n o f th a t d a t a s e a r c h a n d e xt r a c t i o n

02:18:57PM

7

occ urr ed in Was hin gto n Sta te.

02:19:04PM

8

02:19:07PM

9

02:19:10PM

10

Wa s h i n g t o n w it h a - - e x c u s e m e, t h at t h e s e a r c h w a s

02:19:13PM

11

ex ec ut ed in Wa sh in gt on wi th an Ea st er n Di st ri ct wa rr an t

02:19:16PM

12

re qu ir es sup pr es si on .

02:19:20PM

13

Ru le 41 vi ol at io ns re qu ir e su pp re ss io n al so .

02:19:24PM

14

al l of th e pl ea di ng s th at ha ve co me fr om th e go ve rn me nt ,

02:19:26PM

15

no t on ce ha ve th ey ta lk ed ab ou t We il an d, wh ic h is th e ca se

02:19:29PM

16

th at we ci te d, wh ic h sa ys th at su pp re ss io n is re qu ir ed fo r

02:19:32PM

17

a Ru le 41 vi ol at io n, re ga rd le ss of go od in te nt io ns or

02:19:35PM

18

in ve st ig at or y ne ed , or anyt hi ng li ke that .

02:19:39PM

19

if th e vi ol at io n wa s de li be ra te .

02:19:45PM

20

w a s d el i b e r a t e .

02:19:49PM

21

of Ru le 41 th at we ci te d at le ng th to th e co ur t ac tu al ly

02:19:52PM

22

tr ac ks We il an d an d th e Ru le 41 an al ys is .

02:19:57PM

23

02:20:00PM

24

in ve st ig at e.

02:20:05PM

25

si tt in g he re ar e ma li ci ou s in th e se ns e th at it ha s be en

We ma y be ta lk in g ab ou t te ch no lo gy in cy be rs pa ce , They have a A n d a ll t h e

N ow , y o u r H o n o r , I h a v e i nd i c a t e d u n d e r S e d a g h a t y a n d th e ot he r ca se s th e fa ct th at th e wa rr an t wa s ex ec ut ed in

Bu t I am als o go in g to say

th at the

Be ca us e in

It is re qu ir ed

We be li ev e it cl ea rl y

D O J ' s o w n p o l i c i e s a n d i n t e r n a l a n a ly s i s

N ow , I c a n a p p r e c i at e t h a t in t e r n e t c r im e is h a rd t o An d I do not thi nk tha t an y of the

ge nt le me n


137

02:20:10PM

1

u se d i n th is cou rt ro o m.

B ut wh at I do be li ev e i s th at

02:20:13PM

2

thi s was del ibe rat e.

02:20:15PM

3

02:20:17PM

4

th at th is is an is su e of co ns ti tu ti on al ma gn it ud e, wh ic h

02:20:21PM

5

is the

02:20:24PM

6

he ar d, we ar e de al in g wi th co re pr iv ac y is su es an d th e

02:20:27PM

7

ab il it y of th e co ur ts to ov er se e th e ap pl ic at io n of

02:20:32PM

8

execut ive powers .

02:20:37PM

9

02:20:40PM

10

R ul e 4 1, th os e are th e rul es .

02:20:44PM

11

th er e is no qu es ti on th e De pa rt me nt of Ju st ic e kn ow s th at .

02:20:47PM

12

02:20:55PM

13

se em s to op en a do or , bu t th er e is no t, to my kn ow le dg e,

02:21:01PM

14

mu c h l aw a b o u t h o w i t a p p l ie s .

02:21:03PM

15

02:21:07PM

16

02:21:10PM

17

02:21:11PM

18

02:21:12PM

19

02:21:14PM

20

02:21:16PM

21

R. FI EM AN :

02:21:18PM

22

me r e e v id e n c e r u l e .

02:21:20PM

23

th ey co ul d le ga ll y se iz e ev id en ce , da ta , if th ey ha d a

02:21:25PM

24

proper warrant to do it.

02:21:32PM

25

A nd r e g a r d l es s of w h e t h e r i t w a s d e l i b e r a t e, we kn o w

ot he r We il an d fa ct or .

Be ca us e as yo ur Ho no r ju st

A nd u n l e s s a n d u n ti l t he S u p r e m e C o u rt c h a n g e s

T H E CO U R T:

R. FI EM AN :

Th os e are th e ru le s.

W h a t d o y o u m a k e of Ru l e 3 1 0 3 a ?

A nd

That

Yo ur Ho no r, I th in k w e re sp on de d to

wh a t 3 1 0 3a wa s d i r e c t e d t o , w h i c h i s - TH E CO UR T: R. F IE MA N :

Pa rd on m e? I' m so rr y .

Yo u ar e ta lk in g ab ou t

3103a? TH E C OU RT :

Ye ah . Co rr ec t.

B ut th at is ad dr es si ng th e

W e a r e no t d is p u t i n g t ha t t h e y h a d --

N ow , y o u r H o n o r , I t h i n k w h e r e t h i s is u l t i m a t el y


138

02:21:38PM

1

go in g to end up

--

An d th at Rul e 41 is su e, yo ur Ho no r , i s

02:21:41PM

2

en ti re ly di ff er en t fr om wh at th e fa ce of th e wa rr an t sa ys .

02:21:44PM

3

Th at is a co re Fo ur th Am en dm en t pr in ci pl e, bu t th e sc op e

02:21:48PM

4

of th e se ar ch or th e lo ca ti on of th e se ar ch ca nn ot ex ce ed

02:21:52PM

5

th e ju ri sd ic ti on al bo un da ri es th at ap pe ar on the fa ce of

02:21:55PM

6

th e wa rr an t.

02:21:58PM

7

02:22:10PM

8

a vi ol at io n of Ru le 41 , wh at sh o ul d be do ne ab o ut i t.

02:22:16PM

9

I kn ow you r po si ti on is tha t it de ma nd s su pp re ss io n.

02:22:24PM

10

as ke d the qu es ti on , wh at if a di st ri ct ju dg e had is su ed

02:22:28PM

11

th is wa rr an t in st ea d of the ma gi st ra te ju dg e, wh at

02:22:34PM

12

di ff er en ce wo ul d it ha ve ma de ?

02:22:37PM

13

02:22:40PM

14

be c a u s e if th e d i s t r i c t c o u r t h a d s i g n e d a w a r r a nt t h a t

02:22:43PM

15

sa ys th at th e lo ca ti on of th e se ar ch is th e Ea st er n

02:22:46PM

16

Di st ri ct of Pe nn sy lv an ia , pe ri od , th at is it .

02:22:51PM

17

de ci si on by th e ju dg e, wh et he r it is ma gi st ra te ju dg e or

02:22:53PM

18

di st ri ct co ur t ju dg e, th at is th e sc op e of th e

02:22:56PM

19

au th or iz at io n, th at is th e li mi ts of th e ge og ra ph ic

02:22:59PM

20

bo u n d a r i e s of t h e s e a r c h.

02:23:02PM

21

fr om Ru le 41 .

02:23:03PM

22

02:23:06PM

23

to get a wa rr an t th at wo ul d ad dr es s th e pa rt ic ul ar pr ob le m

02:23:10PM

24

or is su e th at th e go ve rn me nt fa ce d in th is ca se ?

02:23:14PM

25

Th at is ju st ho rn bo ok Ni nt h Ci rc ui t la w.

TH E CO UR T:

R. FIEM AN :

TH E CO UR T:

R. F I E M AN :

Pa rt of th e qu es ti on i s, if th er e wa s An d I

Ul ti ma te ly no diff er en ce , yo ur Hono r,

Th at

And that is separate and apart

So yo u ar e sa yi ng tha t th er e is no w ay

F i r s t of al l --

T w o th i n g s , yo u r


139

02:23:18PM

1

Ho no r:

Th at pro bl em ne ed s to be di re ct ed to the

02:23:25PM

2

Co ur t an d th e ru le s co mm it te e in Co ng re ss , if an d wh en

02:23:27PM

3

th ey de ci de th at we ig hi ng th e pr iv ac y in te re st s --

02:23:30PM

4

02:23:33PM

5

02:23:36PM

6

R. F IE MA N:

02:23:39PM

7

re sp ec t th e la w as it st an ds .

02:23:40PM

8

02:23:44PM

9

02:23:50PM

10

inv est iga tio ns, whe re, for exa mpl e, you hav e tar get s

02:23:56PM

11

vi si ti ng il li ci t we bs it es, the un de rc ov er ha s en ga ge d in

02:24:01PM

12

me s s a g e s , t h e y e x c h a n g e e m a i l s, t h ey r e d i r e c t t h e m t o

02:24:06PM

13

si te s in th e ju ri sd ic ti on wh er e th ey wa nt to ge t a

02:24:09PM

14

wa r r a n t .

02:24:12PM

15

W e t a l k e d a l i t t l e b i t a b ou t s po o f i n g .

02:24:15PM

16

so me on e fr om th e ho me pa ge wh en th ey go in to th e si te in to

02:24:19PM

17

se rv er s lo ca te d an yw he re tha t yo u wa nt the m to go.

02:24:22PM

18

ta ke s mo re ef fo rt , th at 's tr ue .

02:24:26PM

19

ri gh t an d le ga ll y do es ta ke mo re ef fo rt .

02:24:30PM

20

not witho ut invest igato ry alter native s.

02:24:33PM

21

02:24:37PM

22

w h i c h j u s t si m p l y i s n o t th e c a s e, t h e i n v es t i g a t o r y e n ds

02:24:43PM

23

ca nn ot ju st if y il le ga l me an s.

02:24:48PM

24

se ns e th at th ey di dn 't fo ll ow wh at wa s on th e fa ce of th e

02:24:51PM

25

wa r r a n t , t h e y d i d n ' t f o l l o w Ru l e 4 1 , I b e l ie v e t h e y w e r e

T H E C O U R T: ye ar s.

Su pr em e

S o t h e y f i n d an an s w e r i n f i v e or te n

Th os e gu ys don 't mov e ve ry fas t. ea nw hi le , the g ov er nm en t ne ed s to

or e im po rt an tl y, th er e ar e al te rn at iv es .

We ha ve

se en pl en ty of , in th is co ur t al on e, ch il d po rn og ra ph y

W h a t t h e y c o u ld h a v e d o n e , f o r e x a m p l e, is -You can redirect

It

So me ti me s do in g th in gs Bu t th ey wer e

A nd h e r e , u l t im a t e l y , y o u r Ho n o r , e ve n if t h e y w e r e ,

An d I me an "i ll eg al " in th e


140

02:24:55PM

1

no t ca nd id wi th Ju dg e Bu ch an an , an d al l th e th in gs th at we

02:24:59PM

2

ha ve pr ob ab ly br ie fe d to de at h, yo ur Ho no r.

02:25:02PM

3

02:25:09PM

4

ol d- fa sh io ne d, si mp le wa y to re so lv e a co mp li ca te d ca se ,

02:25:13PM

5

be c a u s e we k no w y o u h a v e t o g o b y w h a t t h e w a r r a nt s a y s .

02:25:21PM

6

Ho pe fu ll y if th e co ur t ru le s ag ai ns t the go ve rn me nt --

02:25:23PM

7

Pl ea se be ar in mi nd th is is a si tu at io n of th ei r ow n

02:25:26PM

8

m a k i n g.

02:25:31PM

9

th at sa id Un it ed St at es of Am er ic a -- pe rs on or pr op er ty

02:25:34PM

10

lo ca te d in th e Un it ed St at es of Am er ic a, pe rs on s an d

02:25:36PM

11

pr o p e r t y - - l i k e t h e y d id in t he o t h e r c a s e b e f o re J u d g e

02:25:40PM

12

Sm it h' s de ci si on , an d th ey kn ew th ey ha d a pr ob le m, th at

02:25:42PM

13

sa y Ea st er n Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia an d el se wh er e?

02:25:47PM

14

so me th in g th ey sh ou ld ha ve tr ie d fo r, th at th ey co ul d ha ve

02:25:51PM

15

tr ie d fo r.

02:25:55PM

16

an d ap pr op ri at e, we wo ul d pr ob ab ly be ar gu in g a se pa ra te

02:25:58PM

17

set of issues.

02:26:02PM

18

la id ou t why .

02:26:04PM

19

02:26:10PM

20

b u t t h e i r m e a n s w e r e un c o n s t i t u t i o n a l .

02:26:15PM

21

Honor.

02:26:21PM

22

02:26:25PM

23

02:38:50PM

24

02:38:50PM

25

N ow , i n s o m e wa y s t h i s s e e m s l i k e a s o m e wh a t

W h y d i d n ' t t h e y ge t a w a r r a n t f r o m J u dg e B u ch a n a n

Th at is

An d if Ju dg e Bu ch an an tho ug ht th at wa s le ga l

T h e y d i d n' t d o t h a t .

And I think we have

The ir inv est iga tor y end s may hav e bee n jus tif iab le,

T H E CO U R T :

r . Be c k e r .

T h a n k yo u , y o u r

L e t ' s ta k e te n so I do n ' t

interr upt you. (Break.) THE COURT:

r. Becker.


141

R. B EC KE R:

Th an k yo u, y ou r Ho no r.

Ap pr ec ia te

02:38:52PM

1

02:38:54PM

2

th e re ce ss .

02:39:01PM

3

pi c t u r e f r o m o u r p e r s p e ct i v e , w h i c h i s t h a t in t h i s

02:39:06PM

4

inv est iga tio n law enf orc eme nt ide nti fie d and rec ogn ize d a

02:39:11PM

5

se ri ou s pr ob le m of il le ga l ac ti vi ty oc cu rr in g in a way

02:39:17PM

6

th at wa s te ch ni ca ll y ad va nc ed th at re qu ir ed ac ti on .

02:39:26PM

7

in the co ur se of pu rs ui ng th at in ve st ig at io n, an d

02:39:30PM

8

ob ta in in g pr oc es s in or de r to ob ta in ev id en ce , we nt to th e

02:39:35PM

9

cou rts and sou ght aut hor iza tio n to use law ful tec hni que s

02:39:40PM

10

an d co ur t- au th or iz ed te ch ni qu es to co un te r th e so rt of

02:39:43PM

11

cha lle nge the y fac ed fro m cri min als com mit tin g cri mes and

02:39:47PM

12

ex pl oi ti ng ch il dr en us in g an ad va nc ed te ch no lo gy .

02:39:51PM

13

th e pr ob le m th at la w en fo rc em en t fa ce d in th is ca se .

02:39:54PM

14

I th in k th at is th e li gh t in wh ic h th e co ur t sh ou ld vi ew

02:39:57PM

15

th e va ri ou s is su es in th is ca se , be ca us e th at 's wh at is at

02:40:01PM

16

issue.

02:40:01PM

17

02:40:03PM

18

c as e.

02:40:08PM

19

en ga gi ng in th e tr af fi ck in g of chil d po rn og ra ph y.

02:40:10PM

20

th at is wh at it is ab ou t, it is ab ou t cr im in al

02:40:14PM

21

en fo rc em en t, an d th e to ol s th at la w en fo rc em en t us es in

02:40:18PM

22

or de r to co un te r th e to ol s th at cr im in al s us e.

02:40:20PM

23

th e co nt ex t we ar e in .

02:40:22PM

24

02:40:26PM

25

Yo ur Hon or , I wi ll st ar t wi th the

Th is is a cr im in al cas e.

br oa de r

An d

Th at is An d

It is a ch il d po rn og ra ph y

It pe rt ai ns to a we bs it e o n wh ic h us er s we re

I wi ll st ar t w it h th e Ru le 4 1 is su e.

And

Th at is

Un do ub t ed ly --

Yo u kn ow , we di sa gr ee in te rm s of th e de fe ns e' s re ad of


142

02:40:30PM

1

Rule 41.

We ha v e s e t t h a t f o r t h i n o u r p a p e r s.

I w on ' t

02:40:34PM

2

be l a b o r t h a t i s s u e .

02:40:35PM

3

02:40:39PM

4

is to be in te rp re te d fl e xi bl y.

02:40:42PM

5

b e i n t e r p r e t e d t o a l l o w t h e so r t o f s e a r c h t h a t t h e

02:40:45PM

6

ma g i s t r a t e a ut h o r i z e d i n t h is c a s e .

02:40:49PM

7

02:40:52PM

8

fo cu s on the que st io n of whe th er or no t --

02:40:55PM

9

be l i e v e it is n e c e s s a r y f o r th e co u r t t o d e c i d e t h a t

02:40:57PM

10

pa r t i c u l a r is s u e , b e ca u s e we do b e li e v e i t i s a b s ol u t e l y

02:41:00PM

11

cl ea r th at su pp re ss io n fo r a vi ol at io n or pu rp or te d

02:41:04PM

12

vi ol at io n of Ru le 41 in th is ca se is no t wa rr an te d fo r a

02:41:10PM

13

num ber of rea son s.

02:41:11PM

14

02:41:15PM

15

b e w a r r a n t e d g e n e r a l ly o n l y fo r a f u n d a m e n t a l v io l a t i o n ,

02:41:18PM

16

th at is , a vi ol at io n of cons ti tu ti on al ma gn it ud e.

02:41:22PM

17

th at is no t wh at ha pp en ed in th is ca se , be ca us e th e

02:41:25PM

18

pi l l a r s of th e F o u r t h A m en d m e n t w e re c o m p l i e d w i t h b y l a w

02:41:32PM

19

enforcement.

02:41:32PM

20

02:41:35PM

21

ne ut ra l an d de ta ch ed ma gi st ra te ba se d on a fi nd in g of

02:41:38PM

22

pr o b a b l e c a u s e , c e r t a in l y f r o m o u r p e r s p e c t iv e a st r o n g

02:41:41PM

23

sho win g of pro bab le cau se, tha t obv iou sly the mag ist rat e

02:41:44PM

24

ju dg e ag re ed wi th in au th or iz in g th e wa rr an t.

02:41:47PM

25

Th e Su pr em e Co ur t ha s sa id ve ry cl ea rl y th at Ru le 41 W e do be li ev e th at it ca n

Bu t we th in k it ma ke s mo re s en se fo r th e co ur t to An d we don 't

So su pp re ss io n, ac co rd ing to th e Ni nt h Ci rc ui t, wo ul d

And

Th e FB I re qu es te d an d ob ta in ed a wa rr an t fr om a

Th e ot he r pi ll ar s of th e Fo ur th Am en dm en t we re


143

02:41:50PM

1

com pli ed wit h, tha t is, pro bab le cau se par tic ula rly

02:41:56PM

2

de sc ri bi ng th e in fo rm at io n to be se iz ed .

02:42:00PM

3

pa r t i c u l a r i t y r e q u i r e me n t is m et h e r e .

02:42:04PM

4

cl ea r fr om th e wa rr an t ex ac tl y wh at in fo rm at io n law

02:42:06PM

5

en fo rc em en t ma y co ll ec t and di d co ll ec t pu rs ua nt to th e

02:42:09PM

6

wa r r a n t i ts e l f .

02:42:09PM

7

02:42:12PM

8

based on an argument there was a fundamental or

02:42:15PM

9

con sti tut ion al vio lat ion in thi s con tex t, whe re law

02:42:18PM

10

en fo rc em en t go es to a co ur t fo r au th or iz at io n to do

02:42:20PM

11

ex ac tl y wh at it is as ki ng fo r au th or iz at io n to do , th at

02:42:23PM

12

au th or iz at io n is gr an te d, th e wa rr an t de sc ri be s -- me et s

02:42:26PM

13

th e pa rt ic ul ar it y re qu ir em en t.

02:42:29PM

14

cl ea r and re al ly sp el le d ou t ex ac tl y wh at th is wa rr an t is

02:42:32PM

15

des ign ed to col lec t.

02:42:34PM

16

W i t ho u t t h a t b e i n g a f u nd a m e n t a l v i o l a t i on , a m e r e

02:42:42PM

17

te ch ni ca l vi ol at io n of Ru le 41 wo ul d pr op er ly re su lt in

02:42:45PM

18

sup pre ssi on onl y whe re the def end ant can est abl ish

02:42:48PM

19

p r e j u d i c e o r i n t e n t i on a l an d d e l i be r a t e d i s r eg a r d , a

02:42:51PM

20

vi ol at io n of th e ru le .

02:42:52PM

21

02:42:55PM

22

vi ol at io n.

02:42:58PM

23

ca se .

02:43:01PM

24

sa id th at a ma gi st ra te au th or iz in g th is so rt of se arc h

02:43:06PM

25

would be or is a violation of Rule 41.

Th e I t i s a b s ol u t e l y

We th i n k i t i s c l ea r t he r e is n o b a s is f o r s u p p r e s s i o n

Th at is ob vi ou sl y ve ry

I wi ll st ar t wi th th e in te nt io na l or de li be ra te Th er e is si mp ly no evi de nc e of th at in th is

Th er e is no co nt ro ll in g la w th at was

ou t th er e th at

T h e r e i s on e


144

02:43:10PM

1

ma g i s t r a t e ' s o p i n i o n th a t e x i st s , f r o m a m a g i s t r a t e w h o --

02:43:17PM

2

la w en fo rc em en t ap pl ie d for th at wa rr an t, an d th e

02:43:18PM

3

ma g i s t r a t e re j e c t e d i t .

02:43:21PM

4

sc en ar io.

02:43:24PM

5

ap pl ie s fo r a se ar ch wa rr an t.

02:43:25PM

6

02:43:29PM

7

en fo rc em en t go es , in a di ff er en t sc en ar io , re ga rd in g a

02:43:32PM

8

dif fer ent inv est iga tiv e tec hni que , to a dif fer ent

02:43:34PM

9

ma g i s t r a t e in a d i f f e re n t i n v e s t ig a t i o n , a n d r e q u e s t s

02:43:36PM

10

aut hor ity for tha t par tic ula r inv est iga tiv e tec hni que,

02:43:39PM

11

th at ju st be ca us e so me ma gi st ra te el se wh er e in a di ff er en t

02:43:43PM

12

ca se ha d re je ct ed a wa rr an t, th at by re qu es ti ng th at

02:43:46PM

13

aut hor ity for som eth ing dif fer ent , if arg uab ly sim ila r,

02:43:49PM

14

makes it an intentional or deliberate violation of the

02:43:52PM

15

ru le , pa rt ic ul ar ly in li gh t of th e fa ct , as th is co ur t is

02:43:56PM

16

aw ar e, an d is cl ea rl y no te d in th is re co rd , ot he r

02:43:58PM

17

ma g i s t r a t e ju d g e s h a ve a p p ro v e d n e tw o r k i n v e s t i ga t i v e

02:44:01PM

18

te ch ni qu es in si mi la r sc en ar io s to th is on e.

02:44:04PM

19

02:44:07PM

20

ma g i s t r a t e wh o h a s r e j e c t e d a w a r r a n t , a r g u a b l y s i m i l a r , a

02:44:11PM

21

num ber of mag ist rat es who hav e app rov ed war ran ts arg uab ly

02:44:15PM

22

si mi la r, I th in k it is im po ss ib le to sa y th at la w

02:44:17PM

23

en fo rc em en t is ac ti ng wi th a de li be ra te di sr eg ar d of th e

02:44:19PM

24

ru le by pr es en ti ng th e fa ct s in th e in ve st ig at io n to a

02:44:22PM

25

ne ut ra l an d de ta ch ed ma gi st ra te wh o de ci de s th er e is

T h at c o u l d h a p p e n i n an y

Th at co ul d ha pp en ev er y ti me la w en fo rc em en t

Th at doe sn 't in di ca te --

Ce rt ai nl y if an d wh en la w

A nd s o a m o n g th a t l a n d sc a p e , w h e r e y ou h a v e a


145

pr o b a b l e c a u s e a n d t h i s w a r r a n t s ho u l d i s s u e .

02:44:24PM

1

02:44:28PM

2

Th e ot he r si de of th e te ch ni ca l vi ol at io n wo ul d be

02:44:33PM

3

p r e j u d i c e, an d t h a t i s t h e p r e j u d i c e i n t h a t i f t h e r u l e

02:44:37PM

4

ha d be en fo ll ow ed , th e se ar ch wo ul d no t ha ve oc cu rr ed.

02:44:42PM

5

02:44:46PM

6

hi s pr ej ud ic e ar gu me nt is th at no co ur t ev er , an yw he re ,

02:44:49PM

7

co ul d eve r au th or iz e a se ar ch of

02:44:53PM

8

or an y of th e us er s of th is pa rt ic ul ar we bs it e, pu re ly

02:44:57PM

9

be c a u s e t h e y d e c i d e d t o u s e th e To r n e t w o rk , a n d th e r e f o r e

02:44:59PM

10

th at ma ke s th em im mu ne to an y co ur t- au th or iz in g pr oc es s in

02:45:03PM

11

or de r to ta ke st ep s to id en ti fy th ei r lo ca ti on ; th at

02:45:07PM

12

be c a u s e t he i r l o c a t i on is u n k n o w n a t t h e t i m e, no c ou r t

02:45:12PM

13

m a y a ut h o r i z e i n v e s t i g a t i v e s t e p s i n o r d e r t o i d e n t i f y

02:45:15PM

14

th em .

02:45:19PM

15

ac co un t, no t th e so rt of pr ej ud ic e th at is ca ll ed fo r an d

02:45:21PM

16

ce rt ai nl y fo cu se d on in the la w ta lk in g ab ou t pr ej ud ic e in

02:45:26PM

17

te rm s of a te ch ni ca l er ro r.

02:45:28PM

18

02:45:32PM

19

th e se ar ch is kn ow n, so ei th er th e ob je ct of th e se ar ch

02:45:36PM

20

w a s a h o u s e i n a k n o wn l o c at i o n , a c a r i n a k n ow n

02:45:40PM

21

lo ca ti on, th at wa s ou ts id e of the ma gi st ra te 's di st ri ct ,

02:45:42PM

22

th at pr ej ud ic e ha s be en fo un d.

02:45:45PM

23

In th is ca se th e lo ca ti on of th e us er is un kn ow n, an d th e

02:45:50PM

24

te ch ni qu e is be in g ap pl ie d for an d re qu es te d pr ec ise ly in

02:45:53PM

25

or de r to fi nd in fo rm at io n th at wi ll he lp lo ca te th at us er ,

A nd h e r e , t h e d e f en d a n t ' s a r g u m e n t f a l l s f la t , b e c a u s e

r.

ic ha ud 's co mp ut er ,

Th at is no t th e so rt of pr ej ud ic e th is cou rt sho ul d

Th er e ar e ca se s wh er e at a ti me wh er e th e lo ca ti on of

Bu t th at 's no t th is ca se .


146

02:45:58PM

1

th e in fo rm at io n ab ou t it .

So a ve ry , ve ry di ff er en t

02:46:00PM

2

conte xt here.

02:46:01PM

3

02:46:05PM

4

sup pre ssi on arg ume nt fai ls, bec aus e law enf orc eme nt act ed

02:46:08PM

5

re as on ab ly in ac co un t of al l of th e ci rc um st an ce s of th e

02:46:12PM

6

inv est iga tio n, by goi ng to a mag ist rat e, art icu lat ing

02:46:18PM

7

pr o b a b l e c a u s e , a n d a r t i c u l at i n g w h a t w o u l d h a p p en t o t h e

02:46:22PM

8

wa r r a n t a nd w h o s e c o m p u t e r s w o u l d b e s e a r c h e d.

02:46:24PM

9

02:46:27PM

10

th at so me ho w th e ma gi st ra te wa s mi sl ed , or di d no t or

02:46:30PM

11

w o u l d n o t h a v e u n d e r st o o d t h a t t h e r e q u e s t w as to s e ar c h

02:46:34PM

12

co mp ut er s th at ac ce ss ed th is we bs it e wh er ev er th ey we re

02:46:37PM

13

lo ca te d.

02:46:39PM

14

sp ec if ic al ly sa ys , on Pa ge 29, "I t is re sp ec tf ul ly

02:46:46PM

15

re qu es te d th at th e co ur t is su e a se ar ch wa rr an t

02:46:49PM

16

au th or iz in g th e fo ll ow in g:

02:46:53PM

17

co mp ut er, wh er ev er lo ca te d, to se nd to a co mp ut er

02:46:55PM

18

co nt ro ll ed to or kn ow n by th e go ve rn me nt ," an d th en it

02:46:58PM

19

go es th ro ug h th e so rt of in fo rm at io n th at it is re qu es ti ng

02:47:02PM

20

to be de li ve re d.

02:47:02PM

21

02:47:05PM

22

as a wh ol e, ma ke s it un mi st ak ab ly cl ea r th at the pu rp os e

02:47:09PM

23

of th e wa rr an t an d th e te ch ni qu e is to id en ti fy th e

02:47:12PM

24

lo ca ti on s of us er s' co mp ut er s who ar e th en -- wh os e

02:47:16PM

25

lo ca ti on is at th at ti me un kn ow n.

A nd s o , u l t i m a t e l y , yo u r H o n o r , w e t h i n k th e

We do n ' t a g r ee c e r t a in l y w i t h t h e d ef e n s e ' s a r g u m e n t

Th at is be ca us e th e wa rr an t af fi da vi t

Th e NI T ma y ca us e an ac ti ve

In li gh t of th at , as we ll as th e wa rr an t ap pl ic at io n


147

02:47:19PM

1

S o I do n' t th in k th er e is an y fa ir re ad of th is

02:47:21PM

2

ap pl ic at io n th at co ul d sh ow th e ma gi st ra te wa s mi sl ed

02:47:26PM

3

ab ou t th e pu rp os e of th e wa rr an t, or th e fa ct th at it wa s

02:47:29PM

4

req ues tin g aut hor ity to be dep loy ed to com put ers , whe rev er

02:47:35PM

5

th ey we re lo ca te d.

02:47:37PM

6

02:47:40PM

7

ju st so rt of -- in hi s ar gu me nt th at it wa s ca bi ne d in to

02:47:46PM

8

co mp ut er s on ly in th e Ea st er n Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia, th e

02:47:49PM

9

def end ant rea lly rea ds out the war ran t att ach men t.

02:47:53PM

10

02:47:57PM

11

in to th e wa rr an t, ma ke s it cl ea r th at th e ac ti va ti ng

02:47:59PM

12

co mp ut er s ar e th os e of an y us er or ad mi ni st ra to r wh o lo gs

02:48:03PM

13

in to th e ta rg et we bs it e by en te ri ng a us er na me an d

02:48:06PM

14

pa s s w o r d .

02:48:11PM

15

lo ca te d on ly in th e Ea st er n Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia .

02:48:14PM

16

wa r r a n t c l e ar l y r e q u e st e d a u t h or i t y t o d e p l o y t o co m p u t e r s

02:48:17PM

17

wh e r e v e r l o c a t e d .

02:48:18PM

18

A nd I d o n ' t b e l i e v e, a ga i n , i t i s a f a i r r ea d o f t h e

02:48:20PM

19

at ta ch me nt to sa y -- pa rt ic ul ar ly wh er e it sp ec if ie s th at

02:48:24PM

20

th e se rv er is lo ca te d in th e Ea st er n Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia ,

02:48:28PM

21

an d th en au th or iz es on ac ti va te d co mp ut er s of an y us er or

02:48:35PM

22

ad mi ni st ra to r wh o lo gs in to th e ta rg et si te , th at th at is

02:48:40PM

23

so me ho w ca bi ne d in , or th at th at wa s th e in te nt of th e

02:48:41PM

24

ma g i s t r a t e in a u t h o r i zi n g it .

02:48:43PM

25

It is ri gh t th er e in th e ap pl ic at io n.

N ow , i n t e r m s o f th e w a r r an t i t s e l f , t h e de f e n d a n t

A nd t h a t i s , At t a c h m e n t A o f t h e w a r r a n t, i n c or p o r a t e d

It d o e s n o t s a y a n y u s e r o r a d m in i s t r a t o r Th e

Th e ap pl ic at io n ma ke s un mi st ak ab ly cl ea r wh at so rt of


148

02:48:45PM

1

au th or it y th e go ve rn me nt wa s re qu es ti ng .

An d th at is th e

02:48:47PM

2

au th or it y th at th e ma gi st ra te -- ce rt ai nl y we wo ul d ar gu e

02:48:50PM

3

th at th e ma gi st ra te wa s gr an ti ng in ap pr ov in g of th is

02:48:54PM

4

wa r r a n t , a s s h e d i d .

02:48:58PM

5

I n t er ms of --

02:49:05PM

6

l oc at io n of th e se ar c h.

02:49:09PM

7

co nt ex t, wh ic h we th in k is cl ea r, wh er e th er e ar e tw o- wa y

02:49:13PM

8

co mm un ic at io ns go in g on be tw ee n us er s an d a co mp ut er

02:49:16PM

9

server.

02:49:17PM

10

02:49:20PM

11

au th or iz ed , at th e ti me the NI T is de pl oy ed , the co mp ut er

02:49:22PM

12

se rv er on to wh ic h th at NI T co de is de pl oy ed is in th e

02:49:26PM

13

Ea st er n Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia .

02:49:29PM

14

act iva tin g com put ers , the use rs, are com mun ica tin g wit h

02:49:32PM

15

th e Ea st er n Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia wh en th ey ac ce ss th at

02:49:36PM

16

we b s i t e , t h a t t w o - w a y c o m m un i c a t i o n t h a t i s g o in g on .

02:49:39PM

17

in fo rm at io n th at is co ll ec te d by th e NI T is re tu rn ed to a

02:49:42PM

18

co mp ut er in th e Ea st er n Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia .

02:49:45PM

19

02:49:49PM

20

wa r r a n t b ei n g a u t h o r i z e d, l aw e n f o r c e m e n t i s g o i n g t o t h e

02:49:52PM

21

di st ri ct th at ha s th e cl os es t, st ro ng es t co nn ec ti on to al l

02:49:55PM

22

of the

02:49:59PM

23

de al s wi th us er s wh o ar e ma ki ng a vo lu nt ar y ch oi ce to st ep

02:50:02PM

24

in to th e Ea st er n Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia an d ac ce ss th at

02:50:05PM

25

we b s i t e .

Yo ur Ho no r h ad a qu es ti on ab ou t t he He r e, we ar e de al in g in a

Bu t th er e is no qu es ti on th at at th e ti me th e NI T is

Th e co mp ut er s of -- th e

The

A nd s o i n r e q ue s t i n g t h i s a u t h o r i ty , a n d w it h t h e

co mm un ic at io ns th at are

pe rt in en t.

Th e wa rr an t

A n d t h a t ' s w h e r e t h e y ge t t h a t c o d e.


149

It is ce rt ai nl y tr ue th at th e co de th en go es to th at

02:50:08PM

1

02:50:11PM

2

us er' s co mp ut er , as de sc ri be d in th e wa rr an t, an d th en

02:50:15PM

3

re tu rn s -- ha s to go to th at us er 's co mp ut er , wh er ev er

02:50:18PM

4

lo ca te d, in th is si tu at io n it was he re in Wa sh in gt on , an d

02:50:22PM

5

th en re tu rn th e in fo rm at io n ba ck to th e Ea st er n Di st ri ct

02:50:24PM

6

of Vir gin ia.

02:50:26PM

7

I do n' t th in k it is a fa ir an al ys is , th ou gh , to sa y

02:50:29PM

8

th at me an s th e se ar ch oc cu rr ed on ly in Wa sh in gt on, be ca us e

02:50:33PM

9

th at -- it re ad s ou t -- th at so rt of an al ys is wo ul d ha ve

02:50:36PM

10

to re ad ou t th is tw o- wa y fa ct or so rt of co mm un ic at io n th at

02:50:41PM

11

is go in g on , an d th e fa ct th at th e us er is en te ri ng th e

02:50:45PM

12

Ea st er n Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia wh en th e co mm un ic at io ns ar e

02:50:47PM

13

tak ing plac e.

02:50:49PM

14

02:50:52PM

15

co ns id er is ce rt ai nl y th e go od -f ai th ar gu me nt he re .

02:50:55PM

16

th at is th at la w en fo rc em en t in th is ca se ac te d in

02:50:58PM

17

obj ect ive ly rea son abl e rel ian ce upo n the aut hor iza tio n of

02:51:02PM

18

a ma gi st ra te , wh o fo un d pr ob ab le ca us e, wh o fo un d

02:51:07PM

19

pa r t i c u l a r i t y , w h o a u t h o r i ze d t h e p a r t i c u l a r t e c h n i q u e

02:51:10PM

20

tha t law enf orc eme nt app lie d for .

02:51:12PM

21

02:51:15PM

22

gr an te d a wa rr an t an d th en to ok so me ac ti on in th e

02:51:18PM

23

ex ec ut io n th at wa s so me ho w di ff er en t th an wh at th ey

02:51:21PM

24

ap pl ie d fo r, or ou ts id e of wh at th ey ap pl ie d for , wh ic h

02:51:24PM

25

m i g h t j u s t i f y s u p p r e s si o n , s u c h as a c a s e w h e r e l a w

Th e ot he r as pe ct , yo ur Ho no r, th at we wo ul d as k yo u to An d

Th is is no t a sc en ar io wh er e la w en fo rc em en t wa s


150

02:51:29PM

1

en fo rc em en t, wh ic h is -- wh en th ey ar e re qu ir ed to le av e a

02:51:31PM

2

co py of a wa rr an t in a pr em is es , de li be ra te ly de ci de s no t

02:51:34PM

3

to do so , an d no t wi th an y au th or it y fr om th e co ur t.

02:51:38PM

4

02:51:44PM

5

ar ti cu la te d re qu es ts to the ma gi st ra te , an d th at is th e

02:51:46PM

6

we b s i t e o pe r a t e s i n t h e E a s t e r n Di s t r i c t o f V i r g in i a , t h e

02:51:49PM

7

N I T g et s d e p l o y e d t o t h e a ct i v a t e d c o m p u t e r s w h e r e v e r

02:51:54PM

8

lo ca te d, and re tu rn s in fo rm at io n to th e Ea st er n Di st ri ct

02:51:55PM

9

of Vi rg in ia .

02:51:59PM

10

au th or iz at io n.

02:52:03PM

11

Hon or, why sup pre ssi on is ina ppr opr iat e in thi s sce nar io.

02:52:08PM

12

02:52:15PM

13

co ur t, if I ma y te nd e r i t, ju st t od ay --

02:52:18PM

14

t h i s ea r l i e r .

02:52:20PM

15

02:52:28PM

16

02:52:36PM

17

02:52:38PM

18

re co mm en da ti on wa s fi le d in th e ca se of Un it ed St at es

02:52:39PM

19

ve rs us Ep ic .

02:52:49PM

20

N o . 5 3.

02:52:54PM

21

te ch ni qu e wa rr an t, as in th is ca se , wa s ch al le ng ed on a

02:52:57PM

22

motion to suppress.

02:53:01PM

23

ch al le ng e, as we ll as a pr ob ab le ca us e ch al le ng e to th e

02:53:04PM

24

wa r r a n t .

02:53:07PM

25

ju dg e, fi nd in g su ff ic ie nt pr ob ab le ca us e to su pp or t th e

Her e, law enf orc eme nt act ed exp res sly wit hin the ir

La w en fo rc em en t re li ed in go od fa it h on th at An d so that 's a fu rt he r re as on, you r

Th e on e ot he r is su e th at we wo ul d pr es en t to th e An d I re fe re nc ed

a y I a p p r o a c h?

T H E CO U R T: this on my desk.

Yes.

I t h i n k s o m e b o d y p u t a c o p y of

I already have a copy of it.

R. BE CK ER :

Ju st to da y, yo ur H on or , a re po rt an d

It is 15 - - fo r th e re co rd , 15 C R1 6 3, Do ck et

I n t h a t c a s e t he s a m e n e t w o r k i n v es t i g a t i v e

Th a t d e f e nd a n t r a i s e d a R u l e 41

T h a t m a g i s tr a t e h as r e p o r t e d t o t h e d i s t r i c t


151

02:53:11PM

1

is su an ce of th e wa rr an t, de cl in in g to ul ti ma te ly ru le on

02:53:14PM

2

th e Ru le 41 is su e, bu t fi nd in g, no ne th el es s, su pp re ss io n

02:53:17PM

3

w a s i na p p r o p r i a t e i n th i s s c en a r i o .

02:53:22PM

4

w e w o u l d p r o p o s e y o u r H o n o r ru l e .

02:53:24PM

5

02:53:28PM

6

b u t t ha t u l t i m a t e l y i t is n ot n e c e s s a r y , t h a t la w

02:53:32PM

7

enf orc eme nt act ed rea son abl y her e, and tha t sup pre ssi on is

02:53:35PM

8

no t wa rr an te d.

02:53:37PM

9

th e de fe nd an t' s mo ti on s to supp re ss .

02:53:40PM

10

02:53:42PM

11

On e of th e th in gs I co mm en te d on wa s, wh at do es 31 03 a me an

02:53:53PM

12

in li gh t of th is ro le ar gu me nt ?

02:53:56PM

13

02:53:58PM

14

do n' t be li ev e, an d wo ul dn' t ma ke th e ar gu me nt , th at th at

02:54:01PM

15

w o u l d p r o v i d e s o r t o f a n i n d e pe n d e n t b a s i s f r o m R u l e 41 in

02:54:07PM

16

or de r fo r a di st ri ct co ur t or a ma gi st ra te ju dg e to

02:54:10PM

17

au th or iz e th e wa rr an t.

02:54:14PM

18

it , it was

02:54:19PM

19

th e de fe ns e is ne ce ss ar il y --

02:54:21PM

20

co rr ec t in te rm s of th e pu rp os e of th e am en dm en t to th at

02:54:23PM

21

st at ut e.

02:54:27PM

22

the cou rt' s ana lys is her e.

02:54:30PM

23

TH E CO UR T:

02:54:35PM

24

02:54:38PM

25

And so that is what

We th i n k , a g a i n , w e ha v e m a d e o u r R ul e 41 a r gu m e n t ,

So we wo ul d re qu es t th at yo ur Ho no r de ny

TH E CO UR T:

R. B EC KE R :

Th an k yo u.

Le t me ask yo u a co up le of qu es ti on s.

We h av e re vi e we d it , yo ur H on o r.

We

I th in k, ha vi ng br ie fl y re se ar ch ed

a mo re so r t o f di s cr et e pu rp os e.

I do n' t t hi nk

I th in k th e de fe ns e ma y be

An d so we ar e no t ar gu in g th at tha t wo ul d im pa ct

Wh at di ff er en ce wo ul d it ma ke i f a

di st ri ct ju dg e ha d is su ed th is wa rr an t? R. BE CK ER :

Wh il e we thi nk it is so me th in g th e


152

02:54:40PM

1

co ur t can co ns id er , in te rm s of th e re as on ab le ne ss of la w

02:54:43PM

2

en fo rc em en t' s ac ti on s, th at a di st ri ct ju dg e did ap pr ov e a

02:54:46PM

3

wi r e t a p in t hi s c a s e , w h i c h al l o w e d f o r t h e c o l l e c t i o n o f

02:54:50PM

4

a mu ch gr ea te r se t of ev id en ce , th at is , th e on go in g

02:54:54PM

5

co ll ec ti on of co nt en t, wh ic h a di st ri ct ju dg e fo un d

02:54:57PM

6

ap pr op ri at e, an d th at th e co ur t co ns id er th at in te rm s of

02:55:01PM

7

the ove ral l rea son abl ene ss of the gov ern men t's con duc t, we

02:55:03PM

8

do n' t th in k it wo ul d ma ke a di ff er en ce -- we wo ul dn 't

02:55:06PM

9

ar gu e it ma ke s a di ff er en ce in te rm s of a Ru le 41 an al ys is

02:55:09PM

10

02:55:17PM

11

02:55:34PM

12

a go od wa rr an t is is su ed fo r ma te ri al in th e st at e of

02:55:49PM

13

Wa s h i n g t o n , a n d t h e s e a r c h t u r n s u p i n f o r m a t i o n o f a cr i m e

02:55:54PM

14

in an ad jo in in g st at e --

02:56:03PM

15

to be gi n wi th , bu t ve ry of te n dr ug de al er s ke ep re co rd s,

02:56:08PM

16

an d so for th .

02:56:14PM

17

in ano th er st at e.

02:56:18PM

18

go in g af te r a cr im in al in th e ad jo in in g st at e, ar e yo u

02:56:22PM

19

not?

02:56:22PM

20

02:56:26PM

21

Ho no r.

02:56:32PM

22

do thi nk co ul d be ju st if ie d h er e.

02:56:36PM

23

de fe ns e vi ew on ly se ar ch es of co mp ut er s in ED VA we re

02:56:42PM

24

au th or iz ed , bu t du ri ng th e co ur se of th at au th or iz ed

02:56:45PM

25

co nd uc t th at th ey wo ul d, I ga th er , co nc ed e it wa s

if a di st ri ct ju dg e ha d au th or iz ed th e se ar ch . T H E C O U R T:

Let me ask you one other question.

So you

Th at 's no t wh at yo u we nt af te r

ha ve inf or ma ti on the n ab ou t a cr im e

Yo u ar e fr ee to use

R. BE CK ER :

If

th at in fo rm at io n

We be li ev e th at to be tr ue , yo ur

I t i s so rt of a pl ai n- vi ew ty pe ar gu me nt t ha t we An d so if und er th e


153

02:56:48PM

1

app rop ria te, at lea st for EDV A com put ers , inf orm ati on

02:56:52PM

2

pe r t a i n i n g to c r i m i n al a c t s an d cr i m i n a l e v i d e nc e of ot h e r

02:56:56PM

3

co mp ut er s wa s ob se rv ed by la w en fo rc em en t in pl ai n vi ew , I

02:57:01PM

4

do th in k th at wo ul d be - - co ul d b e a re as on th at l aw

02:57:05PM

5

en fo rc em en t wo ul d be ab le to us e th at ev id en ce in a

02:57:07PM

6

cr im in al pr os ec ut io n, an d it wo ul d no t ne ce ss ar il y be

02:57:10PM

7

s up pr es si bl e.

02:57:36PM

8

th at th er e, yo ur Ho no r.

02:57:37PM

9

02:57:40PM

10

ha ve n' t di sc us se d in te rm s of the re as on ab le ne ss , an d ki nd

02:57:43PM

11

of br in gi ng th is ba ck to th e ev id en ce , is th at th e IP

02:57:48PM

12

ad dr es s in fo rm at io n is re al ly di ff er en t in qu al it y th an

02:57:51PM

13

th e

02:57:55PM

14

inf orm ati on, thi s cir cui t, oth er cir cui ts, hav e

02:57:58PM

15

co ns is te nt ly fo un d no t to be so me th in g ov er wh ic h a us er

02:58:02PM

16

ha s a re as on ab le exp ec ta ti on of pri va cy .

02:58:05PM

17

add res s inf orm ati on tha t ult ima tel y fur nis hes the pro bab le

02:58:09PM

18

ca us e in or de r to ul ti ma te ly ha ve a re si de nt ia l se arc h

02:58:11PM

19

wa r r a n t g r a nt e d , a n d f o r th e e vi d e n c e t h a t u l t i m at e l y w a s

02:58:15PM

20

fo un d on

02:58:19PM

21

02:58:24PM

22

vi ol at io n is su e, th e re as on ab le ne ss is su e, we do th in k th e

02:58:27PM

23

co ur t is ri gh t to co ns id er th e li mi te d sc op e of th e se ar ch

02:58:30PM

24

th at wa s au th or iz ed an d co nd uc ted in th is ca se.

02:58:33PM

25

I ha ve a br ie f no te on th at .

I wi ll le av e

Th e la st po in t I wo ul d ma ke -- th e on e th i ng w e

AC ad dr es s in fo rm at io n, in th at IP ad dr es s

r.

It is th e IP

ic ha ud 's d ev ic es t o be se iz ed .

So he re , wh en we ar e ta lk in g ab ou t th e fu nd am en ta l

Th is wa sn 't a fu ll -b lo wn se ar ch of ev er yt hi ng in


154

02:58:36PM

1

so me on e's ho me , or ev en ev er yt hi ng on so me on e' s co mp ut er.

02:58:40PM

2

Th is is a se ar ch th at de li ve re d in fo rm at io n th at wa s

02:58:43PM

3

li mi te d, th at wa s ta rg et ed , an d wi th re sp ec t to th e IP

02:58:46PM

4

ad dr es s in fo rm at io n, th at us er s do no t ha ve a re as on ab le

02:58:49PM

5

ex pe ct at io n of pr iv ac y ov er .

02:58:53PM

6

ov er To r, th at do es n' t ch an ge th e na tu re of th e

02:58:56PM

7

com mun ica tio n, or tha t IP add res s inf orm ati on, whi ch

02:59:00PM

8

be l o n g s to an i n t e r n e t s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r , n o t t o a n y

02:59:02PM

9

individual.

02:59:04PM

10

02:59:09PM

11

ho ne s in on wh at is re al ly th e pi ec e of ev id en ce th at

02:59:12PM

12

ma t t e r s in te r m s o f g o i ng f o r w a r d, i t i s t h a t I P ad d r e s s

02:59:15PM

13

in fo rm at io n.

02:59:18PM

14

con duc ted her e con tri but ed to its rea son abl ene ss.

02:59:26PM

15

02:59:28PM

16

02:59:29PM

17

02:59:37PM

18 19

And even whil

e co mm un ic at in g

A nd s o w e d o t h i n k t h a t is a f a c t o r , a s t h e c o u r t

Ag ai n, a li mi te d, fo cu se d se ar ch th at was

If th e co ur t ha s no fu rt he r qu es ti on s, th an k yo u, yo ur Honor. T H E CO U R T: R. FIE MA N:

T h a n k yo u ,

r . Be c k e r.

Yo ur Hon or , si nc e I ha ve the bur de n,

ca n I ha ve a co up le of mi nu te s to re sp on d? Le t me kn oc k ou t a co up le of si mp le po in ts th at

02:59:38PM

20

02:59:41PM

21

02:59:44PM

22

Th e pr iv ac y in te re st is not

02:59:48PM

23

i n t e r e s t is

02:59:51PM

24

ha ve a te le ph on e nu mb er , an d th e go ve rn me nt ca n' t te ll

02:59:56PM

25

w h e r e y o u a r e c a l l i n g f r o m b e c a u s e y o u h a v e c a l l er I D

r. Be ck er sa id , an d th en ge t ba ck to th e cr ux of th is .

r.

th e IP add re ss .

i c h a u d ' s ho m e .

Th e pr iv ac y

I t is l i k e sa y i n g yo u


155

02:59:59PM

1

bl o c k i n g , w e l l , t h e n i t i s j u s t f i ne t o g o i n t o s o m e b o d y 's

03:00:03PM

2

ho us e and ta ke th ei r ad dr es s bo ok .

03:00:05PM

3

03:00:08PM

4

qu an ti ty of in fo rm at io n or ev id en ce se iz ed is ir re le va nt

03:00:10PM

5

fo r Fo ur th Am en dm en t pu rp os es .

03:00:14PM

6

pr i v a c y i nt e r e s t , a n d t h i s w a s s h a r e d w i t h t he s e r v i c e

03:00:17PM

7

pr o v i d e r , t h e y c o u l d ha v e g o n e t o C o m c a s t a n d a s k e d f o r

03:00:20PM

8

it .

03:00:23PM

9

03:00:26PM

10

03:00:30PM

11

of dru gs , do es n' t ma tt er .

03:00:33PM

12

in fo rm at io n th at is ta ke n, th at is pr ot ec te d by the Fo ur th

03:00:36PM

13

A m e n d m e n t.

03:00:40PM

14

03:00:43PM

15

qu es ti on as he lp fu l to th e go ve rn me nt in te rm s of if , fo r

03:00:47PM

16

ex am pl e, in th e co ur se of op er at in g th e Vi rg in ia we bs it e

03:00:50PM

17

th er e wa s in fo rm at io n in pl ai n vi ew or ha d be en tu rn ed up

03:00:55PM

18

in th e co ur se of op er at in g th at si te , th at wo ul d ha ve le d

03:00:58PM

19

th em to be li ev e th ey co ul d co nd uc t a se ar ch in an ot he r

03:01:01PM

20

jurisdiction.

03:01:02PM

21

03:01:05PM

22

ou t tw o th in gs .

03:01:08PM

23

an d da ta fro m th e Vi rg in ia ser ve r.

03:01:11PM

24

co nt es te d at th is po in t th at th e da ta ex tr ac ti on , th e

03:01:16PM

25

se ar ch , oc cu rr ed in Wa sh in gt on .

We h av e c i t e d s e v e ra l t i m e s t h a t t h e q u a l i t y or

An d if th er e wa s no

Bu t th ey cou ld n' t an d th ey did n' t. Th e qu es ti on th en is wh et he r th is in tr us io n on

r.

i ch au d' s ho me , wh et he r it is fo r a ma tc h bo ok o r k il os It is th e in tr us io n, no t th e

S o t h a t , w e f i r m l y b e l i e v e , i s a r e d he r r i n g .

Yo ur Hon or , I th in k

r. Be ck er in te rp re te d th is

W e l l, t w o t h i n g s w o u l d h a v e h a p p e n e d . On e is , th ey did not

Let me point

ge t th e in fo rm at io n Th ey hav e no t

Th at is tr ue .


156

If th ey ha d go ne ba ck th ro ug h th ei r se rv er re co rd s an d

03:01:17PM

1

03:01:19PM

2

fo un d an IP ad dr es s as so ci at ed wi th Pe wt er , or an yb od y, in

03:01:23PM

3

th e co ur se of ex er ci si ng th at Vi rg in ia wa rr an t, and th en

03:01:27PM

4

to ok th at in fo rm at io n, we nt to Co mc as t, sa id we now kn ow

03:01:31PM

5

th is is a Wa sh in gt on ad dr es s, an d th en ca me to th is co ur t

03:01:34PM

6

an d as ke d fo r a wa rr an t, th a t is th e wa y it i s su pp os ed t o

03:01:36PM

7

wo r k .

03:01:38PM

8

03:01:41PM

9

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10

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if I dr iv e my ca r in to Vi rg in ia , yo u ca n se ar ch my

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Wa s h i n g t o n h om e , i f t h a t i s th e o n ly c o n n e c t i o n .

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13

Yo ur Ho no r, le t me al so sa y th at th e Ti tl e II I

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aut hor iza tio n spe cif ica lly sai d tha t the NIT war ran t

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ap pl ic at io n wa s go in g to be se pa ra te .

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Ti tl e III ca se , be ca us e it do es n' t de al wi th th os e

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communications.

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19

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20

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W e h a v e , a c c o r d i n g t o t he g o v e r n me n t , a w a r r a n t t h a t

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au th or iz es up to 10 0, 00 0 se ar ch es , be ca us e th at is the

03:02:24PM

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nu mb er of ac co un t us er s th at ac ce ss ed wh il e th e FBI wa s

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24

ope rat ing thi s sit e.

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So th is is no t a pl ai n- vi ew si tu at io n, be ca us e th ey ne ve r sa w it in Vi rg in ia . r.

Th ey h ad to se ar ch

i c h a u d' s h o m e t o f i n d i t.

It is a little like saying

Th is is n' t a

Th e Ep ic de ci si on on ly ad dr es se d pr ob ab le ca us e, di d no t re ac h th e is su es th at we br ie fe d he re . Le t me ta lk br ie fl y ab ou t th e pr ob ab le ca us e is su e.

It is a si te , yo ur Ho no r, th at do es no t, ev en


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ac co rd in g to th e cr it er ia th at we ha ve se en fr om Go ur de

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2

an d th e ot he r ca se s, un ab as he dl y an no un ce it is il le ga l.

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3

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times.

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5

c or re ct wa y fo r it to fa ce for

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6

ab ou t so me th in g th at ha s a te en ag er wh o is -- I ha ve se en

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7

in my da ug ht er 's Si xt ee n ma ga zi ne mu ch mo re sk in or

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8

pr o v o c a t i o n .

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9

is no re fe re nc e to chi ld por no gr ap hy .

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10

in di ca ti on th at th is is an yt hi ng mo re th an a fet is h si te

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or cha t ro om .

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qu al if y as la sc iv io us po rn og ra ph y on it .

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13

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of th e se ar ch ha s to be fi rm ly gr ou nd ed in th e pr ob ab le

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15

ca us e -- th e ex te nt to wh ic h pr ob ab le ca us e is

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established.

03:03:32PM

17

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wi t h o ne s e a r c h .

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ca se s.

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20

b r i g h t l i n e , b e c a u s e o f t h e in a b i l i t y o f t e n to s e g r eg a t e

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leg al, if may be dis tas tef ul, act ivi tie s tha t are pro tec ted

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fr om th in gs th at cl ea rl y es ta bl is h an il li ci t il le ga l

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intent.

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Thi s war ran t aut hor ize d the dep loy men t of 100 ,00 0

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se ar ch es an yw he re in th e wo rl d ba se d up on wh at is on th at

I will put this back up.

The court has seen it many

W h a t we ar e t a l k i n g a b o u t is --

Is that the

yo ur Ho no r?

W e ar e ta lk in g

I t a d v e r t i s e s it s e l f a s a c h a t r o o m .

There

Th er e is no

It do es n' t ev en hav e wh at ar gu ab ly wo ul d

As y ou r H o n o r h as r e c o g n iz e d i n o t h e r c a s e s, th e s c o p e

N ow , t h i s w o u l d b e a c lo s e ca l l i f w e w e r e d e a l i n g I argued the Gourde case, and the

artin

An d th at 's wh y th e co ur t cr ea te d so me th in g of a


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1

w e b p ag e .

T ha t i s a p r e t t y sl i m r e a d o n w h i ch to h a n g

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2

suc h an unp rec ede nte d swe epi ng aut hor iza tio n.

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3

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ca n lo ok at th e at ta ch me nt s, an d th er e is no t on e wo rd ,

03:04:24PM

5

no t on e wo rd , ab ou t th is wa rr an t be in g ex ec ut ed ou ts id e

03:04:28PM

6

th e Ea st er n Di st ri ct of Vi rg in ia .

03:04:33PM

7

th e go ve rn me nt di d in 20 12 , wh er e th ey su bm it te d a wa rr an t

03:04:38PM

8

th at in di ca te s th at th e se ar ch es -- th e de pl oy me nt of a

03:04:42PM

9

N I T i n t h i s T e x a s s l a y e r c a se - - a c t u a l l y , t he d e f e nd a n t

03:04:46PM

10

ha s no t be en ap pr eh en de d, bu t th ey go t a wa rr an t, cl ea rl y

03:04:49PM

11

st at es th at th e NI T wi ll be de pl oy ed in Co lo ra do an d

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12

el se wh er e.

03:04:57PM

13

ap pr eh en de d, the re may

03:05:00PM

14

no t at th e Ru le 41 is su es .

03:05:02PM

15

03:05:07PM

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wa r r a n t t h a t s a y s E a st e r n D i st r i c t o f V i r g i n ia , p e r i o d.

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Th ey dr af te d th at .

03:05:20PM

18

Buchanan.

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ow n di le mm a, yo ur Ho no r, th e la w is cl ea r, th e se ar ch

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wa r r a n t c on t r o l s .

03:05:35PM

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au th or iz ed sc op e of th e wa rr an t or lo ca ti on au th or iz ed ,

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th en su pp re ss io n is ma nd at ed.

03:05:43PM

24

03:05:48PM

25

N ow , y o u r H o n o r , i n t e r m s o f t h a t a ut h o r i z a t i o n , y o u

An d ju st co mp ar e wh at

No w, if th at part ic ul ar defe nd an t is ever be goo d Ru le 41 is su es .

Bu t we are

W h a t t h e y h a v e h e r e, by th e i r o w n s ub m i s s i o n , i s a

Th at 's wh at th ey pr es en te d to Ju dg e

A nd e v e n i f t h e y ar e n ow h u n g o n t h e h o r n s o f t h e i r

A n d if t he s e a r c h o c c u r s o u t s i d e t h e

Go od fa it h is ir re le va nt .

S o i f I ge t a wa rr a nt th at s ay s I am go in g to se ar ch 2 30 4 El m Dr iv e, an d I de c id e I am go in g to se a rc h 16 06


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1

A p p l e L a n e , a n d 1 4 0 5 P r e s i d e n t S t r e e t , i t d o e s n 't m a tt e r

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2

wh a t y ou i n t e n d e d , i t i s a n il l e g a l s e a r c h .

03:06:10PM

3

03:06:13PM

4

wa r r a n t t h e y d r a f t e d , a nd t he r e is n o t h i n g i n th e

03:06:15PM

5

att ach men t tha t cha nge s it.

03:06:16PM

6

03:06:20PM

7

Th ey ca n re su bm it th e wa rr an ts in fu tu re in ve st ig at io ns

03:06:25PM

8

th at ca nd id ly sa y th at th ey ar e Un it ed St at es in sc op e.

03:06:27PM

9

Th ey ca n pu rs ue th e ru le ch an ge s, wh ic h wo ul d be de ci de d

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10

03:06:31PM

11

03:06:35PM

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fa ce of th e wa rr an t, re ga rd le ss of th e ru le , the lo ca ti on s

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13

w h e r e t h e y ar e s e a r c h i n g.

03:06:41PM

14

03:06:46PM

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so me wa ys wi th ne w te rr it or y.

03:06:49PM

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pr i n c i p l e s an d g u i d e li n e s a re w e l l e s t a b l i s he d .

03:06:53PM

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ex ac tl y th e ki nd of go ve rn me nt al ov er re ac hi ng , or th e

03:06:58PM

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ab il it y to co nd uc t se em in gl y en dl es s se ar ch es on th e ba si s

03:07:04PM

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of a si ng le au th or iz at io n, th at dr ov e a lo t of wh at th e

03:07:07PM

20

fo un de rs we re co nc er ne d ab ou t wi th ge ne ra l wa rr an ts .

03:07:11PM

21

do es re qu ir e ca re , ca nd or, and sp ec if ic it y in or de r to ge t

03:07:15PM

22

a va li d wa rr an t th at is as sw ee pi ng as th is on e.

03:07:19PM

23

Yo ur Ho no r, ho we ve r th is ul ti ma te ly ru le s ou t -- ma yb e

03:07:25PM

24

it is a ma tt er of th is ca se go in g up al on gs id e Es si ck , an d

03:07:29PM

25

it ma y ul ti ma te ly be a de ci si on fo r th e Su pr em e Co ur t, bu t

It on ly be ar s re pe at in g, yo ur Ho no r, th at th is is th e

A nd t h e y h a v e s o m e c h o i c e s .

T h e y h av e s o m e o p t i o n s .

b y t h e e n d of t h i s y e a r . Ev en if Ru le 41 ch an ge s, th ey st il l ne ed to pu t o n th e

Yo ur Ho no r, to co me ba ck to th is , we ar e de al in g in Bu t th e Fo ur th Am en dm en t


It is

It

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un le ss we ar e go in g to no t on ly -- ju st fo rg et ab ou t 41 ,

03:07:36PM

2

ig no re wh at is on th e fa ce of th e wa rr an t, an d di sr eg ar d

03:07:39PM

3

th e co ns ti tu ti on al gu id el in es th at re al ly ar e th e co re

03:07:42PM

4

is su e in th is ca se , su pp re ss io n is no t on ly th e

03:07:47PM

5

ap pr op ri at e an d ne ce ss ar y re me dy, it is so me th in g th at is

03:07:51PM

6

de sp er at el y ne ed ed , so th at th es e is su es ca n be re so lv ed

03:07:55PM

7

in a wa y th at pr ot ec ts co re pr iv ac y in te re st s in th e fa ce

03:07:59PM

8

of suc h swe epi ng gov ern men tal aut hor ity .

03:08:05PM

9

03:08:08PM

10

in ve st ig at or y al te rn at iv es th at ar e av ai la bl e.

03:08:10PM

11

re sp ec tf ul ly di sa gr ee wi th him ab ou t th ei r in te nt io ns in

03:08:14PM

12

pr e s e n t i n g t hi s w a r r a n t t o J u d g e B u c h a n a n .

03:08:19PM

13

th at he is a la w en fo rc em en t of fi ce r wi th go od in te nt io ns

03:08:23PM

14

pe r s o n a l l y , a l l o f w h i c h i s i rr e l e v a n t .

03:08:28PM

15

wh a t it s a y s.

03:08:29PM

16

03:08:32PM

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of su ch an un pr ec ed en te d se ar ch , an d su ch pa uc it y of PC to

03:08:37PM

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b e g i n w i t h on t h e f a ce of t h i s h o m e p a g e , y o u r H o n o r, it

03:08:41PM

19

se em s to me th at su pp re ss io n is no t on ly ap pr op ri at e bu t

03:08:45PM

20

re qu ir ed in ev er y vi ew of th e la w th at we ha ve pr es en te d

03:08:49PM

21

to th e cou rt .

03:08:50PM

22

03:08:56PM

23

be e n at t h i s a l o n g t i m e, 45 - p l u s y e a r s .

03:09:07PM

24

do n' t kn ow , pr ob ab ly hu nd re ds of se ar ch wa rr an ts .

03:09:11PM

25

ru le d on su pp re ss io n mo ti on s hu nd re ds of ti me s, I su pp os e,

I re sp ec tf ul ly di sa gr ee wi th

r. Be ck er ab ou t th e I

I d o re s p e c t

T h e w a r r a n t s a ys

A nd w h e n w e h a v e al l of t h is b a c k g r o u n d , an d th e s c a l e

Th an k you .

T H E CO U R T:

Thank you.

Well, you know, I have I h a v e is s u e d , I


I ha ve

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ov er th at per io d.

03:09:19PM

2

ye t.

03:09:27PM

3

t ha t we re in my mi nd .

03:09:36PM

4

b r i e f a g a i n , t h e w a r r a n t a pp l i c a t i o n s , a n d t he w a r ra n t s

03:09:40PM

5

an d pu t th is to ge th er .

03:09:46PM

6

03:09:51PM

7

t hi s i s o n t op of th e pi le , a nd I sh ou ld be ab le to get

03:09:54PM

8

yo u an an sw er by th e mi dd le of th e we ek ne xt we ek , ei th er

03:10:02PM

9

in wr it in g o r, if I ch oo se to do it or al ly , i f yo u ar e no t

03:10:05PM

10

in to wn w e c an do it on th e t el ep ho ne .

03:10:09PM

11

orally when I can.

03:10:18PM

12

l e t y o u k n o w a s s o o n a s I c a n, a n d w e w i l l g e t y o u a n

03:10:22PM

13

an sw er .

14

Th is is li ke ly the

mo st com pl ex one

Th e he ar in g to da y ha s cl ar if ie d a nu mb er of th in gs Bu t I' v e g ot to re ad yo ur pr ol ix

I' ve go t no he ar in gs or tr ia ls fo r th e ne xt we ek , so

I ty pi ca ll y ru le

I am not ready to rule yet .

I will

Th an k y ou . (Procee dings adjour ned.)

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25


162

1

CERTIFICATE

2 3 4

I, Ba rr y Fa nn in g, Of fi ci al Co ur t Re po rt er fo r the

5

Uni ted Sta tes Dis tri ct Cou rt, Wes ter n Dis tri ct of

6

Wa s h i n g t o n , c e r t i f y t h a t th e f o re g o i n g i s a t r u e an d

7

co rr ec t tr an sc ri pt fr om the re co rd of pr oc ee di ng s in th e

8

above- entitl ed matter .

9 10 11

12 13

/s/ Bar ry Fan nin g Bar ry Fan nin g, Cou rt Rep ort er

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Michaud/Playpen Hearing Transcript

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